Islamic Facists. GHB

[danastas]

Can't say I agree, fett. Who were the big partners in that area for 500 years? Muslims and Jews got along for that long during the Ottoman empire. All these countries over there never existed before the last 100 years. Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Iraq, Kuwait, none of these even existed.

Egypt and Iran have a long history, I agree.

But the rest have an even shorter history than Americans.

I still say it's about oil and oil only, and as we move forward in the future, you'll see our leaders become less apologetic about it. The British don't even apologize anymore. They say, either we control the entire Middle East and all its oil, or our economies are going to take a big big hit within our lifetime. It should be no surprise and no accident that the biggest terrorist is actually a billionaire from a billionaire royal family that controls more oil than any other entity on earth. I mean, anyone could have been the leader of Islamic terrorists. Is it just a coincidence that bin laden also comes from the world's biggest oil interests? I don't think so.

He's a pretty nice balance for the Saudis, just in case the West gets any funny ideas.

[Tashtego]

... We knew the guys in WWI and WWII. Japan and Germany and Italy were almost like us. They were just land hungry countries. We knew the Russkies. We knew China, for a while. We didn't know the Koreans and we lost. We didn't know Vietnamese and we lost...

Well, I can't say I agree with this Fett but I do agree that it sure looks like Arab Moslems are incapable of governing themselves in participatory democracies. Unlike the Germans and Japanese. They appear to be perhaps the most depraved and uncivilized observants of a depraved and uncivilized religion.

[YetAnotherOne]

I've heard that the extremists plan to take over England, I don't think the scots welsh and Irish will allow that to happen to us...

I'd be ecstatic if a significant majority of Americans actually recognized that a real threat, however remote, exists.

[finnman]

found this/


The psychology behind suicide bombings

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/rnr/195090563.html

[danastas]

It's that kind of amateur Freudian crap that gets people uppity. Man, the chicks in Tehran and Beirut used to wear skimpier mini-skirts than anything you'd see in Dallas back in the 70s. Those places were swinging. Beirut was known as the playboy capital of the world. Back then, the only terror you'd experience at the hands of a Palestinian was when they'd hand you $50 for your pair of Levi's.

Yeah, he filmmaker is right about the brainwashing now, but to say it's ingrained like that is to ignore a lot of recent history. It's ingrained in the poor areas that weren't there 25 years ago, and it's ingrained by the madras's too.

I see that quote above by the crazy guy that wants to instill sharia law for Muslims in Ireland. That's nuts. But then I turn around the corner and I see some Christian fundamentalist in the USA that wants to peek into my bedroom and outlaw oral sex. Same thing, only we live in a country where I can tell that guy to go to hell. For now, anyway.

[levantin]

Hi Levantin, well, hopefully Turkey is model that these other places can follow rather than Iran or Saudi Arabia but I'm not holding my breath. I didn't think you were defending the Islamic war on modern civilization. I understood you to be objecting to a general condemnation of Islam based on the actions of a subset of the adherents.

Thank you!

I hesitate to argue about Turkish history with a Turkish citizen but I will ask, how can you characterize Ataturk's model for and implementation of the modern Turkish society without acknowledging the supression of Islam. Not the murder of every Moslem cleric for sure, but still many legal restrictions on practise and influence of Islam. In fact, Moslems are more free to observe Islamic prescriptions for behavior here in the US than in Turkey. It isn't just banning headscarves or burkas or Fez's. The army has intervened in the democratic process numerous times to throw out elected officials who were trying to integrate Sharia law (Islamic law) into Turkish law.

Atatürk and the "founding fathers" as it were, built the republic on a westernized, democratic model. One of the biggest crimes in Turkey today, is attempting to change the fundamentals of the republic as laid out in the first 5 articles of the constitution. When a group has attempted this in the past, the army has intervened, and people see the armed forces as the proctector of the regime. This does not just include Islamic fanatics but also communists and ultra nationalist right wingers as well. The army has openly intervened in politics 3 times - 1960, 1980 and 1997. The first was for a variety of reasons, one being the inclination of the government to Islamic law making. The second was basically to end a country wide power struggle between leftist and nationalist groups. The third was because the prime minister had invited a number of clerics to his residence in his official capacity as PM. These incidences were unnaceptable to the army. More power to them I say.

As I have said before, fanaticism is suppressed but you cannot equate Islam to fanaticism. People are free to worship in any way they choose. Banning of traditional islamic dress only applies to official offices. The fez is not an Islamic symbol in Turkey, it is an Ottoman symbol, and was outlawed in the effort to sever ties with Ottoman culture.

The issue on the headscarf is more complicated. Islamicists use the headscarf as a political symbol to try and demonstrate that the restrictions on dress in official offices are unfair. For example, one MP came to be sworn in with a headscarf, knowing that this would cause a poitical upset. In my view, this is more related to politics than belief. Anyhow, if we gave them permission for the headscarf they'd probably find something else to whine about anyway. My take on the issue is, the headscarf is an expression of the person's identity as a muslim. My expression of my identity as a metalhead is long hair, beard and tattoos. If expression of identity is not permitted while representing official office, then it cuts both ways. If you want to work for the state you get a hair cut. If you don't want to get a hair cut, don't work for the state.

On the other hand, all secular states take measures to prevent religious law from creeping into legislation. This might be Islamic, Christian or any other kind of religion. What do you think about the creationist debate or stem cell research? These are religious issues in the States. Is not teaching creationism in schools suppresion religion or protecting the rights of people who think differently?

The bottom line is, in Turkey, you can worship any god(s) you like, in any way you like. If you try to make somebody else worship the god you like, in the way you like, you will be prosecuted.

[levantin]

These "muslim" nations will eventually be run by the extremists. Its just a matter of time.

For Turkey, over my dead body. Literally. Over the dead bodies of millions and millions of Turks who come from families of war heroes from the war of independence and those who believe in democracy.

[Endrik]

anyone who supports the idea of:

*nuking something
*innocent muslims can die

is a dick

[lerxstcat]

Egypt is where Osama is from and they never arrested him when they could have.

Osama's family is from Yemen and lives in Saudi Arabia. Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama's #2, is from Egypt.

[Tashtego]

Thanks for the history lesson Levantin, I didn't know many of those details. I think we agree, Turkey is a modern secular state but unlike the United States for example, the army is the ultimate arbiter of civil government. Like Turkey, the United States has constitutional articles specifying the separation of church and state. Unlike Turkey the dominant religion here in the States are the various flavors of Christianity and unlike Islam, Christianity does not directly specify a legal code. There is no true challenge to the American legal or political system from Christianity. It is certainly true and could be the subject of a very long and interesting conversation, that Christian theology provides a dominant part of the moral underpinning or foundation of our society. However, the army never has to intervene by removing elected officials because they wish to enact laws or carry out acts in conformance with their particular sect of Christianity that violate the constitution. Particular episodes are referred to the courts (all the way up to the Supreme Court if they are important enough) and the citizens and elected officials abide by the findings.

[levantin]

Yes, I think you are right. For example you have "in God we trust" on legal US tender. Here it would not be acceptable to put "in Allah we trust" on our currency because the implications are much more serious.

On the other hand, Judeo-Christian theology/attittudes and Greek philosophy are integral parts of the Western way of thought. That "moral underpinning" as you put it makes it hard for Westerners to really understand the Eastern mode of thought. As someone who has lived in both Eastern and Western cultures, I can say that issues are not as black and white as people make them out to be.

[Snoogans]

Nothing constructive to add here, I'm just amazed and humbled at the knowledge and lucidity of some of you guys on this board.
D'ya reckon they do this on the ESP or BC Rich boards?

[horns666]

Me too:ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: Cus I started it. If we cool our jets this thread will keep running. Bill is a "special ed" kid and we just have to indulge him. You can't fuk with a ranting institution.:ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: Shawn

Thanks Shawn ..Thanks Fett..my brothas..I knew you'd understand...

OK continue with the thread...

I'll be good..

[yard dawg]

See the fire of a burning rage
Teach a class full of kids to hate
Pledge allegiance to an unknown cause
A fight they know nothing of

(Chorus)
Terrorist child, if you only knew
You were taken and brainwashed only to kill
´Terrorist child, your days are few
And the blood that you shed will come back to you,
Terrorist child

The playground is their battlefield
The army game they play is real
No fun in their little lives
Only trained to die

(Chorus)

[ozzuk1]

"D'ya reckon they do this on the ESP or BC Rich boards? "

It would have liekly turned into an atheist vs extreme God squad members on the ESP boards by now, and people saying muslims should suck thier dicks...

Whats the deal with that dude in ireland wanting to put sharia law???

I just know that there is a threat from extreme muslims in the uk, there are plenty of muslims that possibly could try a coup against the government..

look at the race riots in bradford, and areas in england where ther are large muslim populations these clashes happen mainly because the communities of whites and muslims asians etc dont intergrate.....

I dont think it would succede mainly due to the Welsh and Scots.....

There was a family of muslims that mvoed into the principals lodge in collage before the last month/ few weeks of term, two of thier children are being privately funded to go there why the family needs to stay I dont know, they came from Quotor which isnt a bad country...

They would/do walk around like the palce isnt good enough for them...

However I played a lot of heavy shit like nevermore/Slayer quite often

Ozz