A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

[Alexi7]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

ha ha im a piece of land, you're a piece of land, i think if the governments around the world distributed joints, bongs and/or pot, we'd all be sitting in the sunshine, and a white piano

[Evol]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Originally posted by Fragle:


i just saw some report in TV where it says that several US soldiers tortured the iraqis.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But how many reports did you happen to see of the attack in Saudi where they tied up a Westerner to the bumper of the car and dragged his naked body through the streets?
I'm sorry but getting people to look gay and faking them out with wires is NOT torture...it's funny how the story gets that fucked up spin...does anyone know why they are prisoners in the first place????? Maybe trying to kill our soldiers???? Hell that's getting off light if you ask me.
I say fuck em' an eye for an eye...what our guys did to them is *nothing* compared to the shit they pull...and I'm laughing everytime I see this guy that escaped 2 days ago,what a bunch of idiots to kidnap someone then leave them alone!
Carpet bombing - it's what's for dinner! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[ApeDosMil]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

the Koran states that if you do not practice islamic religion/ or your a christian, that they will attack you. if you don't convert you die. America is linked to Chrisitanity which makes them hate.

the only true followers of islam are the one ones causing damage.

they blame america for all their problems. if they really wanted to get their countrys back up, they could ask America for help. Ie Osamma wanted to over throw some goverments in one of his countrys to make it better. But instead they blame America, even though the Muslims killed off more of their own people then anyone else.

It's pretty sad.

[Lev]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Originally posted by MichaelMadeja:
the Koran states that if you do not practice islamic religion/ or your a christian, that they will attack you. if you don't convert you die. America is linked to Chrisitanity which makes them hate.

they blame america for all their problems. if they really wanted to get their countrys back up, they could ask America for help. Ie Osamma wanted to over throw some goverments in one of his countrys to make it better. But instead they blame America, even though the Muslims killed off more of their own people then anyone else.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">nope it doesn't say that anywhere.. you have to understand that islamic extremists have put out their own interpretations of the Qu'ran and those contain false messages. People keep spreading these lies which lead to hatred which leads to all this crap... Read a direct translation/interpretation, its a very similar religion to Christianity and no where in it does it condone violence. If you haven't read it, don't comment on it.

They don't blame America for their problems and nor do they want to 'move on.' Arabs are extremely traditional and have completely different values than you do. As much as we see that as uncivilized or stupid, its what THEY want, and thats what matters.

[Newc]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

And what THEY want is fine, as long as THEY keep it in their own back yard and DON'T try to force it on US by attacking us.

Yes, this is a war against Islam, as it should be, to show these people that they have no right to attack us for ANY reason, and that since WE do not practice Islam, WE may not be "punished" for NOT practicing it.

There is not one human alive on this earth who has the right to "punish" America for our friendships, our culture, or our economic/political influence.

When Sept 11th happened, I heard a LOT of people say "America had it coming" - [img]graemlins/brow.gif[/img] and just WHO decides what we have "coming"!? Certainly no human is capable of such a judgement, as all humans are corrupt.

Newc

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

LOL Lev - I've read both the "moderate" western translations and the more accurate translations and they both absolutely do call Muslims to violence against the "infidels" (anyone who's not Muslim) and, especially, the Jews. That said, there are also lots of passages that call on Muslims to be peaceful and tolerant. Therein lies the problem: One can find anything one wants to find in the Qur'an and there is no central authority in Islam to refute whatever beliefs one chooses follow.

If you don't believe that the Qur'an incites violence, I invite you to watch the following excerpts from Friday sermons: from PLO television, Egyptian Imam discussing why Muslims are REQUIRED to hate Jews, Saudi television on when and how one may beat one's wife, more Friday sermons from varios locations in the Middle East, a few sermons from Iraq and, last but not least, the Muslim Women's Magazine from Egyptian (you know, the "moderate" Muslims) television. Clearly Muslims & their imams don't share your pacifist interpretation of the Qur'an.

[Boxcar Willie 84]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

al Quaida is about as good a representative of Islam as the KKK is of Christianity...out of all of the Islamic people I've ever met in my life, none of them were the "kill the infidel" types, and all of them were deeply saddened and hurt by 9/11-even the ones that are not from America. America making this a religious war is exactly what Bin Laden wants to happen-he wants the "Jihad" he spoke of when the 9/11 shit was going down, and making it a religious based war is only going to make America look worse and worse, and will lead to more loss of life, which is never a good thing.

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Do a bit of research on dhimmitude Boxcar. That's what you'll have if Islam fulfills its goals.

[Lev]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Newc, since when do terrorists represent all Muslims? Then again you want to level all Mosques, thinking that will lead to peace [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

YetAnotherOne,
Having lived in the middle east I have never heard of an Arab beat their wife. Sure it happens, especially in Saudi, but it also happens in the US. I stopped watching that video once the guy started going off how you ban the woman from your bed first, and then beat them [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] It doesn't say that anywhere in the Qu'Ran. I'm not sure what versions of the Qu'Ran you read, maybe you just WANT to interpret Islam as violent, you sure have done your research with these memri.org video's, the site is obviously doing the opposite of whats it portrays its goal to be. You know just as well as I do that if any one of us felt like it, we could find Christian preachers, Jews, Hindu's, or whatever spewing all sorts of crap on TV, there's a corrupt version of everything in this world. I've experienced the middle east for myself, I'm also Turkish, EVERY muslim I know takes the pacifist interpretation I have, besides the media what personal experiences have you ever had with muslims? My pacifist view of the Qu'ran doesn't come from me just reading it, it comes from living amongst and learning from the Arabs themselves. Lots of them do in fact hate Israel, but they would NEVER kill anyone.. you have to understand that the majority of Palestinians and Iraqi's are uneducated, they've never had to think logically or ethically in their lives, thus leading to these horrible consequences.. well, there's a whole lot more that can be said about that but there's no point in opening up another can of worms. America has the worst crime rate in the world, does that mean Christians are violent? It works both ways, US hates the Middle East thanks to the media, and Arab hates the US/Israel thanks to their own media. I live in the US, I like it, its cool... I lived in the Middle East, I also liked life there. You know what though, there's fucked up people in both places. I can dig up thousands of pages of information about why both places suck, however, unlike most of you I try to focus on the good things in life rather than whine about everything little fucking thing such as "OMG THERE WAS AN INDIAN GUY NOT SPEAKING IN ENGLISH ON TV, THEY'RE ALL OUT TO GET ME!! ITS TIME FOR A REVOLUTION!!" Get a life.

I wouldn't judge Christianity based on what ONE preacher says or from a few crazy TV programs, I wouldn't expect you to either.. I guess it only works against Islam [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I remember you quoting passages from the Qu'Ran in the past, if those were from your moderate versions, get yourself some REAL moderate versions because those quotes were false.

This is why there's no point in believing God, it just leads to trouble [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[the_drip]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

I like Lev's point of view.


I don't have enough experience with the muslim population of any kind to make any osrt of judgements on them. I hate everyone equally.

[Evol]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

problem is that it's not just one preacher...just look at what's happening in Thailand,Indonesia,Saudi,Iraq,Iran,Israel...etc,et c,etc,....they are trying to spread out and have been quite successful over the years to convert people to Islam.
Not only that but they want the governments to be based on their religion,in other words not giving people a choice in the matter.
My grandparents lived in Iran then in Saudi for 11 years but could not go to church...why? Because their government(and religion) forbids it!
Bottom line when you have a government based on religion you oppress the people you are governing.Part of what made our country so successful is we have more freedoms than just about any other country in the world which promotes a free thinking society,look at how far the entire world has changed just in the last 150 or so years......because of the U.S.A.

Carpet bombing - the other white meat.

[monk]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Originally posted by YetAnotherOne:
LOL Lev - I've read both the "moderate" western translations and the more accurate translations and they both absolutely do call Muslims to violence against the "infidels" (anyone who's not Muslim) and, especially, the Jews. That said, there are also lots of passages that call on Muslims to be peaceful and tolerant. Therein lies the problem: One can find anything one wants to find in the Qur'an and there is no central authority in Islam to refute whatever beliefs one chooses follow.

If you don't believe that the Qur'an incites violence, I invite you to watch the following excerpts from Friday sermons: from PLO television, Egyptian Imam discussing why Muslims are REQUIRED to hate Jews, Saudi television on when and how one may beat one's wife, more Friday sermons from varios locations in the Middle East, a few sermons from Iraq and, last but not least, the Muslim Women's Magazine from Egyptian (you know, the "moderate" Muslims) television. Clearly Muslims & their imams don't share your pacifist interpretation of the Qur'an.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Isn´t this the usual quotemining? From what I have heard the Qu'ran do tell people to kill the infidels, but it is describing how they should act in case of war, not else. It does not tell anything about starting the war, it just suggest what to do if such a war breaks out.

Lev, am I anywhere near the truth on this one?

[Lev]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Originally posted by Evol:

Bottom line when you have a government based on religion you oppress the people you are governing.Part of what made our country so successful is we have more freedoms than just about any other country in the world which promotes a free thinking society,look at how far the entire world has changed just in the last 150 or so years......because of the U.S.A.

Carpet bombing - the other white meat.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Like I said.. thats what they choose. Bahrain is a very free and democratic country, they even have churches all over the place. However, the new king set up a new form of government, where there would be a parliament with representatives chosen by the people, a pretty typical system. So when voting time comes around, EVERY single representative that got voted in is for a pro-Islam type of government. Its what the people want, plain and simple. It might be hard for you to accept, but they don't care. They have strong traditional values, they don't want people like Janet Jackson showing their tits on TV, they'd rather keep their values and limit their freedom. None of us would, but they do, get over it.

[Lev]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Isn´t this the usual quotemining? From what I have heard the Qu'ran do tell people to kill the infidels, but it is describing how they should act in case of war, not else. It does not tell anything about starting the war, it just suggest what to do if such a war breaks out.

Lev, am I anywhere near the truth on this one?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, during a holy war you're supposed to kill the infidels, and only during war. If someone isn't a Muslim, you should explain Islam to them, and if they don't accept it thats ok. However, if you're a Muslim and you convert out of Islam, you'll be damned. Thats how I remember it to be atleast.

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Yes Lev, I do have a number of Muslim acquaintences (I might go so far as to call some of them "friends" but their religion forbids them from befriending infidels). While I haven't lived in the Middle East as you have I do know a number of American and Middle Eastern persons who grew up there. To date you're the only one I've heard sing its praises, all of the others were relieved (at least) to leave.

As for the problems that spring forth from Islam, Winston Churchill said it far better than I could:

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities...but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled,the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome. Sir Winston Churchill, from The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248,50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since you're an expert on the Islamic faith at least be honest with the persons here who don't know much about it and explain what mansukh and nasikh mean and how they affect the alleged moderate and tolerant verses in the Qur'an, particularly those in the early suras. I'll give you a hint: "context" in the Qur'an does not in any way correspond with what we in the west think of as "context" in writing and literature.