A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

[nor]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

The American economy is kicking ass, right now. Best it's been in years. And the funny part is, gas prices are at an all time high.

So much for the cheap oil theory.

[markb]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

The problem with Iraq is that they had the military strength to control the middle east, and thereby a large portion of the earth's energy reserves. In the Gulf war Iraq was passing through Kuwait, not occupying it.They were advancing on Saudi Arabia, the real prize. It is a practical joke of the gods that the world's main oil reserve is situated in the mad, disorganized, unstable and militaristic arab states. When not fighting Israel, they have historically battled each other, stabbed each other in the back, argued over land claims,killed each other over interpretations of Islamic law...it never ends.

[Ralph E.]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Originally posted by nor:
The American economy is kicking ass, right now. Best it's been in years...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe if your a lawyer, doctor, or builder. Otherwise, I don't see it.

I guess it's a matter of perspective.

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Originally posted by nor:
The American economy is kicking ass, right now. Best it's been in years. And the funny part is, gas prices are at an all time high.

So much for the cheap oil theory.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep. The new report (out today) shows an annualized GDP growth rate of 4.3% (very healthy and well above the government's long-term planning estimates). When coupled with the previous quarter which showed the strongest quarterly GDP growth in 20 years, I'd say we're in good shape right now.

Unemployment's a bit of a concern but our current rate of 5.7% is below the average of the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s and, I believe, lower than nearly any (I'd say "all" but I'm not 100% certain) western European nation (though I'm relatively certain our rate is close to half that in France & Germany).

We're pretty much kicking ass and taking names when compared to Europe. The EU released a report (sorry this is press coverage, I don't have a handy link to the complete report) showing that:

... when based on the following factors (these are the proper measure of economic well-being according the the EU -ed):[*]an information society for all [*]innovation and R&D[*]liberalisation of the single market[*]building network industries[*]creating efficient financial services[*]improving the enterprise culture[*]increasing social inclusion[*]enhancing sustainable development.

Three European nations (Finland, Denmark & Sweden) are doing better economically than the US.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I could critique each of the above since some clearly don't apply as well to the US as Europe and others measure "improvement" rather than absolute levels (and since Europe's behind the US economically they'll have a relatively easier time showing such improvements) but it's really not worth the time. Suffice it to say that the problem (for the Europeans) is that the only accurate measures of economic well-being are per capita GDP & GDP growth and what the Europeans are trying to measure is closer to the *distribution* of wealth rather than the ability of their economies to create it in the first place. Here's how the three shining stars of Europe compare to the US when accurate measures of economic well-being are applied (annualized GDP growth / per capita GDP):
[*]Finland 1.6% / $25,800 [*]Denmark 1.6% / $28,900 [*]Sweden 1.9% / $26,000 [*]US 2.4% (now 4.3%) / $36,300

Like I said, we're kicking ass and taking names when compared to Europe (and remember that the three above are the *best* western Europe has to offer economically).

[ April 29, 2004, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: YetAnotherOne ]

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Originally posted by Ralph E.:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by nor:
The American economy is kicking ass, right now. Best it's been in years...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe if your a lawyer, doctor, or builder. Otherwise, I don't see it.

I guess it's a matter of perspective. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jobs are a lagging indicator. Always have been, always will be. We have a couple of years of slack that needs to be taken up and it's not going to happen overnight but given the huge growth numbers we've seen recently it *will* happen. Productivity numbers alone won't sustain this recovery much longer, warm bodies will have to be added to the payrolls.

[zx12r]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

piss off

[Shotgun]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Originally posted by j2379:
we are in war with iraq & in the middle east for one reason OIL.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] That's a good one! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Like we couldn't have bought the same amount of oil (and more) from the Saudis for a hell of a lot less than the $100 trillion that the war is costing.

Oh, god, I'm crying I'm laughing so hard. Ok, man, it is all about the oil... [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Keith

[Hotrod]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

By Fragle:

talking about racism. when martin luther king was still alive, the average black worker earned about 58% of the money the average white worker earned. today, it's still only 60%. black people may be allowed to sit next to white people in busses, for example, but the racism issue is definetely not solved - yet. the blacks are the first who get fired if a company has to fire some workers, and they are the last who get jobs when a company is looking for workers.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] Where exactly do you find this information? That is simply not how it is at all. Find me one black man who does the same job as a white guy next to him; has been there the same amount of time and has the same education/experience who makes 60% less. Once again, misinformation distributed to make America look like the bad guy. [img]graemlins/eyes.gif[/img] It gets old.

[j2379]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

if it wasnt about oil would we even care about the middle east...NO, would we be defending israels actions since they are our ONLY allie in the middle east NO. the only reason to care about the middle east is oil.

[markb]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

The gulf war was most definitly all about oil and control of the middle east.

This one is more about neutralizing threats and sending a "dont fuck with us" message.
The rest of the globe seems to have taken a "don't encourage them" MYOB kinda approach, hoping extremists will pass them by.

The US has taken more of a "let's find them all and kill them" stance kinda thing.

And who can blame them?

[Newc]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Germany had nothing we needed, and we cared enough to send our children to die there. Same with France, Africa, England, etc.
It seems America has learned that being a Super Power also carries the responsibility to help the smaller nations when needed.
The last report I saw (last year sometime) said we actually only get 10% of our oil from the Middle East.
To say it was all about grabbing the oil is ludicrous considering Bush has his own oil fields. If he wanted to dominate the US oil market, he can do it from right here at home by simply cancelling OPEC contracts and cranking it out of his own wells.
We no longer NEED Middle Eastern oil (I doubt we ever really NEEDED it, we just bought it from them as a favor to help them build an economy and enter the Global marketplace).

As for the current Iraq War - I say it's time to end it decisively by obliterating major portions of Iraq. Politicians have no business making military strategy. I'd send CNN and all them back home first - no more battlefield cameras.
Next, I'd level every Mosque I could find, as that's where these insurgents are staging their attacks from, and gathering to arm themselves.
Then I'd round up all the Clerics and hold them in solitary confinement so they can't issue commands.

And I'd carpet bomb Iraq for 30 days non-stop from border to border.

Newc

[markb]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

The trade tower attack was meant to terrorize and taunt the US - the message was how can you fight an enemy you can't see?

The US moved very quickly in to try and show that they can find and punish those responsible, and the extremist groups really don't have the secrecy advantage they thought they had. It was all about intimidation and deterrent.

I think unfortunately the key element of the American initiative was they needed to go in and find Bin Laden very quickly. That was certainly the main goal of all their operations. By quickly capturing the main source, they would have very effectivly been able to put the message out that "you cannot hide". It would have been a psychological blow indeed, if extremist groups perceived that their main advantage was an illusion.
It has hurt the US position that Bin Laden continues to elude them. All the US eggs were in that basket, and it has bogged everything down that it failed. Bin Ladens escape is a symbol to the Arab world of defiance and victory.

Capturing Hussein and some of Al Q's top operatives has been of some value, but is very unfortunate that Bin Laden slipped by.

[Lev]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

Originally posted by Newc:
To say it was all about grabbing the oil is ludicrous considering Bush has his own oil fields. If he wanted to dominate the US oil market, he can do it from right here at home by simply cancelling OPEC contracts and cranking it out of his own wells.
We no longer NEED Middle Eastern oil (I doubt we ever really NEEDED it, we just bought it from them as a favor to help them build an economy and enter the Global marketplace).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The US buys oil from the middle east because of its low sulfur rate, making it the best quality and most efficient oil in the world. Thats why you buy from them, not as a 'favor' [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Going into Iraq solely for oil obviously wouldn't be worth it, no ones going to start a war to save a couple of bucks, and in this case you wouldn't save any money anyway.. however in the long-run, if the US ends up going into Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and then Iran, then IMO it would be solely for oil and nothing else. Combined with the Caspian sea, taking control of the oil in these area's would add about $3 trillion worth of oil, dropping its prices considerably, and add to that all the American oil and gas corporations that would be mining, distributing, selling, etc. all that oil, it would be a huge economic boost, as well as giving you control of the worlds energy resources. Doesn't seem ludicrous at all to me. Is this what's going on though? I don't know, but its a plausible idea.

Stopping terrorism doesn't seem realistic to me... there's always going to be evil for every amount of good there is, its just the natural balance of the world. For every asshole you kill another one is born... thats just my personal outlook on life so don't waste your time trying to debate it.

[Boxcar Willie 84]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

And I'd carpet bomb Iraq for 30 days non-stop from border to border.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What exactly is this gonna solve? Killing an entire country's population isn't going to solve anything. That's the problem. There is TOO MUCH killing. Too many people have died already. Get a grip on reality.

[Fragle]

Re: A step to peace plan for U.S. No Action .. No Jackson..

i agree, murdering a whole country is not a solution.

i just saw some report in TV where it says that several US soldiers tortured the iraqis. I'm not going to accuse anyone because of this, it just makes me (again) think of how aggressive - and in the very end self-destructing - humans are. i remember similar incidents during almost every other war.....makes me really think about it....

greets
fragle