Top Mount v. Recessed Trem

[toejam]

I've already done that before, and I didn't need to shim the neck. I just bought some saddle shims off ebay and was easily able to raise the saddles to the desired height with no problem. It's not rocket science.

[ginsambo]

And I would consider that a botched installation. The base plate of a Floyd shouldn't rest against the body at all in any circumstance.

If a Floyd were meant to be installed that way it would probably have to have individually adjustable saddles unless you modify the string height off the neck with shims in the neck pocket...

x2. But apparently loads of people are saying that they are setting their's up this way? :think:

[vector]

And I would consider that a botched installation. The base plate of a Floyd shouldn't rest against the body at all in any circumstance.

If a Floyd were meant to be installed that way it would probably have to have individually adjustable saddles unless you modify the string height off the neck with shims in the neck pocket...

Not trying to kick the dead horse but I've bought several new Charvels, with top-mounted OFRs that sat flush up against body. The most notable was a yellow custom shop Star with 1 H. I eventually had the trem raised to allow for a little pull up but that Floyd was flat against the body. The guitar was otherwise set up perfectly at the time.

[ginsambo]

Here's the thing, was the baseplate slightly angled back from the posts or was it literally parallel and flush on the body, because if its the latter, I can see how you can do massive divebombs without hitting the paint?

[toejam]

x2. But apparently loads of people are saying that they are setting their's up this way? :think:

When Floyds were first made, how do you think they were originally put on guitars? Resting on the body.

[Chad]

And I would consider that a botched installation. The base plate of a Floyd shouldn't rest against the body at all in any circumstance.

If a Floyd were meant to be installed that way it would probably have to have individually adjustable saddles unless you modify the string height off the neck with shims in the neck pocket...

That's the setup on EBMM Axis & EVH guitars. Back when I had an Axis, I spoke with EBMM and they indeed recommending using shims in the neck pocket to adjust action height.

[rstites]

Going back to the beginning of this thread.

Kinda feel.... wrong in pointing out a few benefits of flush mount trems but... flush mount (and I do mean FLAT up against the body) does allow you to break a string and keep more or less in tune. It also works dandy for Dtuna's. Outside of that, I can't think of a single reason for liking it-

Those are two big reasons. Two other big advantages for flush mount Floyds that also relate to tuning: double bends are much, much easier to pull off and palm muting is easier (though not nearly as difficult with the floating trem). Finally, there is a discernible difference in tone between a flush mount Floyd and floating Floyd. If you crank the flush mount down with a enough strings, it's basically a hardtail when you aren't yanking on it. (It still has all that locked steel thing going on, which is indeed different from a true hard tail, but as close as you get with anything that can dive bomb.)

I always thought that flush mounting for a Floyd meant resting on the body, too.

That's how it's been used as far back as I can remember. This thread is the first instance I've ever heard of someone using the term "flush mount" and referring to a Floyd not mounted firmly against the body. To be fair, I can see from the picture above how someone might think that, but such a trem installation is a pretty recent invention....well after we'd been using flush mount to mean something else.

And I would consider that a botched installation. The base plate of a Floyd shouldn't rest against the body at all in any circumstance.

If a Floyd were meant to be installed that way it would probably have to have individually adjustable saddles unless you modify the string height off the neck with shims in the neck pocket...

It's not botched. It's just a different style of installation. You must flush mount a Floyd to do any kind of tuning changes (D-Tuna or similar) live with one. You must if you want any of the other advantages I mention above.

Traditionally, you do shim the neck in the pocket to get a Floyd to work properly. It's part of the Floyd Setup 101. All of my old Charvels and Jacksons have non-recessed* Floyds and all have a few mm of shims in one end of the neck pocket. If you don't want the neck angle, you can put a full shim in and just raise the whole neck up. Either works great and is well proven. Btw, they came from the factory that way, though I adjusted them later too.

* Not flushmounted either. They're basically like an old strat, so you can pull up a bit.

[Ward]

So it sounds like I've been using term correctly after all...

[j2379]

RS I have yet to own an early factory Floyd d Jackson w a shim. I've had a few 86 strats and a dinky they all had full floating trems no shim and probably a full step of pull back. As for recess even back in the day they recessed Floyd's. I have seen many a warlockII with early Floyd installs. U gotta recess the trem since it's neck thru and has no neck angle.

[rstites]

You may be right on the Jacksons. My single San Dimas Jackson is a weird duck of a strat: pretty much a factory parts-mutt as I understand it. They may have changed things up by then, since Floyds were widely available by then. Yeah, you get ~1 step of pullback, just a bit more than a traditional strat trem. However, you're talking a bit later in the game than I was, so yeah things are different after they've changed!

I don't recall seeing recessed Floyds until later. However, when they came out, they became the ubiquitous way to design pretty shortly. It seems it was about the same time that Floyds became widely available on new guitars (after they moved beyond the exclusive relationship with Kramer), but I really can't say for certain. I wasn't paying attention to the technology at the time. I had other things on my mind!

Obviously a neck-through or set-neck guitar is an entirely different subject. You can't buy one of those, ship them back to the factory with a Floyd and tell them to install it for you. The benefit of a bolt-on is that you can hotrod it, after all.

[VitaminG]

When Floyds were first made, how do you think they were originally put on guitars? Resting on the body.

yea. When you think of the earliest Floyd installs, they were retrofits. They were often replacing vintage trems so they'd be setup against the body to maintain the guitar's action. Even then, the neck might need a shim if the strings sat higher on the Floyd than they did on the bridge it was replacing.

Of course, the neck could always be shimmed further to increase the neck angle so that the trem could be raised off the body, to allow pullups while maintaining low string height, but I reckon that was a later development.

And of course, all of this is moot when we talk about guitars built with a Floyd in mind. A decision would be made in that case to float the trem, sit it on the body, or recess it, and that would determine the angle of the neck pocket rout.

[vector]

Two other big advantages for flush mount Floyds that also relate to tuning: double bends are much, much easier to pull off and palm muting is easier (though not nearly as difficult with the floating trem). Finally, there is a discernible difference in tone between a flush mount Floyd and floating Floyd. If you crank the flush mount down with a enough strings, it's basically a hardtail when you aren't yanking on it. (It still has all that locked steel thing going on, which is indeed different from a true hard tail, but as close as you get with anything that can dive bomb.)

We're starting to venture into stylistic preference territory. It's give and take, imo. Each mounting method has it's own set of benefits and drawbacks.

Flush mount allows for palm muting, minimal, if any, tuning issues when a string breaks and of course, DTuna capabilities. The easier, better, double bend and tonal benefits aren't really fair to consider because that requires copious tension from heavy duty springs (and lots of them). Not really a characteristic of flush mount, in of itself.

Floating, recessed trems generally offer a fuller range of pull up and a lower profile to the body, which is desirable to some. It also eliminates the need to angle necks or shim.

Top mount w/o being flush allows some pull up capability, a higher profile (similar to a TOM, Tonepros bridge) and the option of changing, if desired, to flush mount.

[rstites]

And of course, all of this is moot when we talk about guitars built with a Floyd in mind. A decision would be made in that case to float the trem, sit it on the body, or recess it, and that would determine the angle of the neck pocket rout.

Correct. If you buy a new guitar factory-made with a Floyd, they typically cut the neck pocket with an angle. That serves the exact same purpose as the shims. In case it wasn't obvious above, when I'm talking factory-installed, I mean one that you ship to the factory and have them install to a guitar initially cut for a vintage trem. Obviously, they aren't going to need to do this if the guitar was designed from the ground up with a Floyd.

Flush mount allows for palm muting, minimal, if any, tuning issues when a string breaks and of course, DTuna capabilities. The easier, better, double bend and tonal benefits aren't really fair to consider because that requires copious tension from heavy duty springs (and lots of them). Not really a characteristic of flush mount, in of itself.

That's a good point. It seems like pulling the thing down hard with lots'o'springs is more common with a flush-mount, but you're correct that it really doesn't have to be that way. I always found the double-bend thing to be the worst issue I had the Floyds. I'm light-handed enough that the palm muting isn't a huge issue for me, but the double-bends staying in tune is a major PIA.

All of this is ironic as I've slowly been switching to hardtail guitars lately because I found a barely touch the Floyds anymore, though they're still the only trem I'll use on a regular player just due to tuning stability.

[ginsambo]

A lot of talk. So which one has the blues rock chatter? :think:

Seriously, I don't know how you guys who have your non recessed floyds sprung hard back against the body can deal with it, surely when you release a bend fast, the floyd knocks against the body, like it does with one of them god awful trem stop jobbies? It just seems so wrong to me, a floyd should be floating, however it's installed and if you want more reasonance and sustain and a harder attack, get a V trem, hardtail or Tom.

There's a thought, do these floyds set up this way, improve the attack and sustain? I am getting to thinking I might quite like one set up this way, if it acts like a Fender V trem on steroids with floyd capabilities, if I could bring myself to bodge it up. But it has to damage the paint though surely with a fast release from a 5 step bend for example? Thing is, what if I like it? Then all my guitars will be ruined. No, I am not even gonna try it, I can't be tempting myself.

And as soon as you whip out the hardtail or TOM, it's Angus Young eat your heart out, you can't really execute crazy vibrato'd bends over other notes with a floating floyd. Well you can technically, but the springs absord alot of the crazy vibrato and attack.

I can see people's reasoning for setting them up this way, but I think I'd prefer to have a specialised guitar for each job, rather than a jack of all trades, master of none.

It has taken me about two years to master mutes and hard bridge picking and spring combinations with a floating floyd.....now you tell me. No way I am changing now. Frankly I think this floyd baseplate hard against the paint is a silly idea, unless you regularly change tunings, but then why not change guitars instead? It is not the best to set up a floyd and is compromising a lot in many ways for not a lot of gains. Seriously, how often do people who set their floyds up like this even use the bar? I advise a TOM or hardtail, half a turn of a tuning peg and you are there, you can even do it whilst you are playing, how easy if that!

Spring combinations, numbers and patterns and even the stiffness of the springs themselves have a huge influence on how stable a floating floyd is, whether recessed or non recessed, if you are coming from a heavy handed Les Paul background, you just experiment with springs until you develop a light side of your palm. You can really set floating floyds up quite stiff, that is how I like them anyway, but still floating.

With some cheese, macaroni, crushed black pepper and just a hint of l'eau de panty liner.

Can I refer you to a most excellent post on Blues Rock Chatter?

Double bends are possible, you just have to set your floyd up stiffer and adjust the pitch of the notes with your fingers, rather than slamming it like you would on a TOM or hardtail. Damn even I learnt that and I'm not the sharpest tool in the box!

[bratfink]

We're starting to venture into stylistic preference territory. It's give and take, imo. Each mounting method has it's own set of benefits and drawbacks.

Flush mount allows for palm muting, minimal, if any, tuning issues when a string breaks and of course, DTuna capabilities. The easier, better, double bend and tonal benefits aren't really fair to consider because that requires copious tension from heavy duty springs (and lots of them). Not really a characteristic of flush mount, in of itself.

Floating, recessed trems generally offer a fuller range of pull up and a lower profile to the body, which is desirable to some. It also eliminates the need to angle necks or shim.

Top mount w/o being flush allows some pull up capability, a higher profile (similar to a TOM, Tonepros bridge) and the option of changing, if desired, to flush mount.

I have both a top mount and a floating recessed. I can palm mute, do full dives (to the point where all the strings hang lose) and do at least 2-3 step pull ups on both. If I break a string I can usually get it pretty close to correct just by using the fine tuning knobs and I can convert to drop D and reset tuning only using the fine tuner knobs.

I don't know what the fuck you lot are doing on your setups! But it sounds like BS to me.

And if you want the floyd to sit flush on the surface of the guitar why did you even buy a floyd? Just use one of them cheapo strat style bridges. Or be a man and buy a Kahler.