What corners were cut on the production models

[Flatpicker]

After all these posts, I've come to the conclusion that 85 San Dimas dosen't understand what he's talking about. Or this is one complicated trolling maneuver.

"but it is necessary that they be made the same as they are in the real Charvel shop since THAT PRODUCTION PROCESS by THAT COMPANY is what defines what a real Charvel is. I'm not defining it. History and what Charvel was resurrected to be are definign it."

This line makes no sense. So are you saying that they should have never changed the way they did things, even though all the competition did.

If so, Why?
So, San Dimas to Ontario = ok
San Dimas to Corona = fake?

Dosen't make sense man. Heck, even Gibson lovers will tell you that Standards are just as Gibson as a Historic. Even if they are different tiers.

[Newc]

I think what he's saying is that by using a CNC "rubber stamp" machine, being so much better at rough-cutting body blanks than using the old one-piece-at-a-time bandsaw, is actually a bad thing, and that only " real" Charvels are done the old, slow, tedious, more-costly way simply because that's how it was done back in 1980-85.

It seems to me that many people assume that the CNC machine is doing everything: joining the body pieces, shaping them, routing them, finishing them, assembling them, and packaging them.

As I understand it, all these machines CAN do is take hand-pieced body blanks (rectangles) and rough-cut them into "looks like" shapes, which are then final-shaped by bandsaws, routers, sanders, and drill presses operated by people.

[Flatpicker]

As I understand it, all these machines CAN do is take hand-pieced body blanks (rectangles) and rough-cut them into "looks like" shapes, which are then final-shaped by bandsaws, routers, sanders, and drill presses operated by people.

That's how I always understood it.
CNC does rough cut work and the line workers do everything else by hand.

Basically, if you look at the way China does guitar building today it's all by hand. But that's just because labor is so cheap you would lose money bringing in a CNC machine.

Does that mean that the Chinese can make Charvels?

[Rupe]

The biggest misnomer in this thread is that Charvel is something more than a brand...that's all it is folks. Beyond that, Charvels are and will be whatever the owner of that brand (FMIC) wishes to release as a "Charvel".

This romantic notion of what they "are" or "should be" is touching but has no basis in reality.

[Bionic]

By the "hard way" do you mean the way the real Charvels are built now? Yes.



Only because they're built by non-Charvel employees on non-Charvel equipment using non-Charvel materials from non-Charvel parts with non-Charvel QC. I think that all pretty much qualifies it as "Non-Charvel".

re: copies.



....Or the quality of parts and build, don't forget that part of the equation.
These are inconsistent too, as are all manufactured items.



And by your math about 375 in 1982 converts to 1000 now. That's Kramer Focus money we're talking here (and they had "real" floyds too).



Damned shame that. We could've used 'ol Ronnie last fall when Wall Street found out Fender was building decaled Charvel copies on their production line and the world economy crashed. So, even Wall St. agrees with me.



Been doing it for 11 pages (urr.. 12 now) Newc. Point by point. Over and over and over. A lot of the response I get back is emotional except for the posts where its argued its only a brand-name so who cares, but then why would we have this fine forum if it wasn't more than a brand-name? Grandturk offers specs, but specs alone I disagree. But since you want to read it again (in a condensed version):

If a Charvel costs 2500 bucks then thats what they cost. They cost that because of those materials and that labor. You can't build a Charvel for 1100. If they could've then this thread would've been one page long. Charvel can't build it and have GC sell it for 1100, so FMIC is building high-quality copies on the Fender production line and badging them as Charvels.

The preceding paragraph is all absolutely true and proven beyond any possible arguement by anyone. You, Bionic, Grover Jackson, Mike Shannon. it doesn't matter who wants to argue. These are the facts.

So, we disagree on what again? Whether its a true Charvel since it shares no components and no production facilities with same? Since the only real Charvel item is the decal and maybe the neck plate?



#1: I originally questioned the USA production, and opined that that price point generally means Korean parts, but I didn't say they were "shit".

#2: I don't want some kid blowing 1100 on a So-Cal thinking he's getting the real thing because HE IS NOT, and everyone reading this thread knows it. I would rather he didn't buy the So-Cal rather than buy it and feel ripped off when he finds out the truth.

I don't have to twist a view to get to my conclusion. I know what a Charvel is, and I know what a Charvel is supposed to be. So-Cals require a "twist" to call them Charvels, it requires rationalization. It requires making excuses for the So-Cals intentional shortcomings to achieve a lower price point. I think you should be justifying how they ARE REAL without using legalisms or emotional arguments. So.......as for the JCF (which I love, and the guitars which I love):

I think honesty is the best policy Newc. Our "expert" advice is worthless if we don't call something what it is. Otherwise we'd be shills for FMIC. "Oh, its soooooooo great. "Charvels" for 1100". And I ask no one to give away anything. FMIC created this argument when they decided to redefine what they want a Charvel to be.

But in the interests of honesty and to clear it up for Epi owners:

My Public Service Announcement (IMHO)

If you've got 1100 to spend on a Charvel-type 70's-80's guitar AND
it: a)Has to be new & b) has to say Charvel on it FROM THE FACTORY...

then by all means....BUY A SO-CAL. it is the best of its kind for USA production "super-strat" bolt-on guitars. Hands down. I never said it wasn't.

To all Epi owners...buy a So-Cal. To all LTD owners..buy a So-Cal.
If your Ibanez was made in Japan, especially by the old J-craft guys then you've got a helluva guitar so hold on to it unless its too much guitar for you. If you have a lesser Ibanez then buy a So-Cal.

ESP makes damned good guitars Newc whether we "like them" or not.

And none of this PSA applies to Charvel CS.

BUT (IMHO) IF YOU ARE SMART then SAVE THE 1100 and buy a used real one-just be discrimminating on condition, or buy a used So-Cal for about 650. Again all IMO.

Newc, If you want to say "the So-Cal is a price leader for Charvel. It gives you the look and feel of the real thing at a lower cost. It is assembled in the USA" (we understand that is true). You get a Charvel copy with the quality of production line Fender" then that's correct.
So, How is that a slam? That is a selling point and Bionic will agree, and except for the word "copy" he already HAS agreed. I just pretty much stated his case. I insert the word "copy" where Bionic would use the word "real".

And BTW NEWC...is starting another thread by basically saying "piss off" to the people who question the So-Cals really letting this thing die?

Ok, this is quite possibly the most "all over the map" thread I have ever been involved with... and that is saying a lot...as I used to moderate a Counter Strike Forum...

With that said, there are items that you have posted as "fact". They are not facts...

1. The USA Production Model Series are made from the very same components and materials that have in the past AND future been found on varied Charvel Custom Shop Guitars. Even the Bridge!

2. There is a Charvel Production Line. These are Charvel Employees.

3. The Custom Shop and the Production Line are separated by a wall. Both product lines are under the same roof.

4. These ARE Charvel Machines. We tooled up for this series with some state of the art CNC's etc...

These are not Copies. They are USA Made Production Models. To frame this...simply, look at the American Standard Stratocaster and then look at a Custom Shop Stratocaster. Just like Charvel, the price points come in differently due to the process and the amount of handwork.

This guitar is designed for the re-emerging shredder. The production Series Model is the off the shelf Tool that plays and feels great. There is no other USA Made Guitar, with these features, for this price that can compare. (IMHO)

The Custom Shop is for the more discerning player. You pick the options, the materials and the wood, the color and type of paint. They are made by the best of the best. They take significantly more time to build... think of the Custom Shop guitars like a "works bike". (any dirt bike riders out there?)

I hope this puts the products into some perspective. I have tried to stay out of this thread... but I felt I HAD to at least address some assumptions that consistantly appeared.

I love the passion!!!

Mike

[Flatpicker]

You're not gonna convince him. He's already made up his mind.

[Grandturk]

I hope this puts the products into some perspective. I have tried to stay out of this thread... but I felt I HAD to at least address some assumptions that consistantly appeared.

I love the passion!!!

Mike

Well... if the Production Series are fakes... and you're an employee of a company making fakes... does that make you fake as well? Perhaps we're all fake. Oh, the humanity!

lol

Thanks for weighing in again on this one, Mike! You the man! And tell those screw counters back in HQ that the Pro Mod series is F'n awesome!

[Flatpicker]

I hope this puts the products into some perspective. I have tried to stay out of this thread... but I felt I HAD to at least address some assumptions that consistantly appeared.



Mike

You know something. I don't believe you.
I think a few free tours of the facility would set our minds at ease.:idea:

[85 San Dimas]

I already ask for a tour in this thread twice...but no response:think:
c'mon Bionic, show me you're right and I will sing FMIC/Charvels praises to the whole world.

But Flatpicker, this is the most detail Bionic has given up to this point. previous posts were more vague. Am I convinced? Not quite yet. If Bionic is saying that the CS bodies are CNC'd then I'd have to agree that it is acceptable to use those machines for the production line obviously. How could I not?

So question #1: Bionic, are CNC machines used in the manufacture of Charvels? Not the So-Cals, the San Dimas and above? If Shannon picks up an average CS body and neck to put a guitar together is he picking up parts that have been CNC'd? Even a little bit?

My argument has always been that the very corners that were cut to build the So-Cals are what constitute the difference between a "Fender" and a "Charvel". The So-Cal "build" is "Fender" and not "Charvel". Ford not Ferrari. Am I being a "d**k"? Maybe to some, but I'd say that at least I'm asking questions. That's what the JCF is for, right? And beyond the argument back and forth there is a lot of interest in these guitars.

Also, I knew that last post would pull Bionic back in, BUT it was interesting to note that the So-Cals share bridges with the more expensive models as well so....what do you mean, Bionic?

Question #2: Do you mean the "floyd" Bionic? or the "trad" trem? or both?
The trad trem I'd believe, but the "floyd"?

Anyway, thanks for the post Bionic........when is the factory tour? I can see both sides of the wall which is tremendous!!!! Can I bring my old '85 Pink Soloist and have Mike give it the once over?

[85 San Dimas]

The biggest misnomer in this thread is that Charvel is something more than a brand...that's all it is folks. Beyond that, Charvels are and will be whatever the owner of that brand (FMIC) wishes to release as a "Charvel".

This romantic notion of what they "are" or "should be" is touching but has no basis in reality.

Unfortunately you are right, especially since the sales literature leads us to believe that "Grover is back", or "Shannon is building Charvels" implying that its just like it "used to be". I mean, I'm not making this stuff up.

[85 San Dimas]

[quote=Newc;1230414]I think what he's saying is that by using a CNC "rubber stamp" machine, being so much better at rough-cutting body blanks than using the old one-piece-at-a-time bandsaw, is actually a bad thing, and that only " real" Charvels are done the old, slow, tedious, more-costly way simply because that's how it was done back in 1980-85.quote]

Right Newc. I don't think CNC is good or bad, but I think it isn't part of the build process for a Charvel. That's part of the reason a Charvel should cost much more. The all-encompassing "build" is the primary issue on Charvel guitars at the CS prices with that brand name. Since So-Cals don't conform to pre-IMC or present/former charvel CS standards......thus my conclusion to this point.

[85 San Dimas]

Question: When you have a warranty issue on a Charvel CS guitar and have to send it back, where do you send it to? Who works on it?

When you have a warranty issue with a So-Cal where does it get sent to?

Reasonable enough question......and y'know the answers to all these different things are what create my opinion. I'd really like to know the answers.

Oh and I forgot. Zippo I agree with what you are saying logic-wise. That's actually part of what I'm trying to figure out and whats going on in the thread. What are the differences between one line of Charvels and another, and what significance does it have if any. Much of the disagreement is obviously about the significance.

[Grandturk]

85, I guarantee the difference is in who picks up the body off the CNC machine.

[mudkicker]

think of the Custom Shop guitars like a "works bike". (any dirt bike riders out there?)

Time to hijack this thread. the factories claim the works bike is dead. Please. My suspension has never worked in the whoops like the the works bikes.

[85 San Dimas]

With that said, there are items that you have posted as "fact". They are not facts...

Well actually there is no logical way that my facts can be far wrong (maybe a little inaccurate but) I can't be off the mark by much Bionic. Your parts and labor have to be very cheap to build that guitar for 350-400 in Cali.

I'll make it short (for me anyway) and just respond to this one:

The Custom Shop is for the more discerning player. You pick the options, the materials and the wood, the color and type of paint. They are made by the best of the best. They take significantly more time to build... think of the Custom Shop guitars like a "works bike". (any dirt bike riders out there?)

In other words what a Charvel by reputation is, was, and should be. The best of the best. Not the best we could do for 1100 bucks shop.

Update: I edited this post to take out the rest of my very well reasoned response because IMHO there really is no point to continuing the discussion.

So, in conclusion.....

When someone asks "what corners were cut" which was this thread was about (and how I entered it) understand it's a ridiculous position that "none were, its just built differently". That's semantics.

I'm in Charvels corner. I love them.

But I will never change the following position (and I truly believe it is the only logical way of looking at it):

FMIC needs to change the neck plate on So-Cals to protect the marque. IMHO. I KNOW they aren't identical to the old. But these plates are on Ebay and that is not good for anyone. When it costs 2 or 3 grand to get a plate like that people tend not to strip them off of guitars. They're just similar enough to get average people ripped off, and if it said "So-Cal by Charvel" it'd be much harder to do. If FMIC gave one whit about the brand name or the people who support it including those of us on this forum they'd change it. Now I'm done. I'm off to hijack another thread and let this one die. LOL. Thanks guys including Bionic, Grandtuek, and Newc. Truly enjoyed it.