Axefx Ultra after 2 hours of plugging in...

[Matt_B]

Can the Axe-fx mimic changes in preamp and power tubes in a Amp? I swapped the JJ preamp tubes in my mark iv with Sovtek preamps and the amp got some "bite" in the tone and became slightly more tight. Can the afx mimic those?

Hmm...interesting thought.

There are a lot of ways to tweak the Axe-FX's amp in it's Advanced Parameters but to be blunt, I have not really dabbled in them because I haven't found the need to (though I should). I do know there are parameters than can affect how loose or tight an amp feels and there are plenty of ways to control bite with EQ (treble, brightness, presence, high end rolloff) in the Amp block itself.

[Chief_CrazyTalk]

From what I hear, the Axefx sounds like it's the next big thing, and I'm glad the OP is thrilled with his. I'm curious to see whether this is truly evolution, or if this will go the way of guitar synths...which were also the must-have, next big thing at one time.

I'm not a pro, and haven't played in a band situation since high school party days half a lifetime ago. I highly doubt I ever will, either...around here, it sounds like a full-time job if you take into account packing, transport, and unpacking....for what - gas money?

I'm sticking to my JCM800...but I wouldn't mind playing around with the Axefx.

[roodyrocker]

My point exactly. And my fellow JCF'rs... I am not talking out of my ass on this one. I have been playing live consistantly for around 30 years. I have seen just about everything you could possibly see when playing live. Unless you travel with your own PA and sound personel, you are really taking a chance thinking you could bring your direct into the board rig to a gig. There were many gigs through the years that we only used the PA for vocals because the house PA's were so bad. It gets even worse when you are doing multi-band gigs where only the first band gets a soundcheck and you only have 15 minutes to get on stage and be ready to play in between bands. Usually, for those gigs, the soundman has mic's set up for the guitar cabinets. When one band is done, they roll or carry their guitar amp off the stage and the soundguy just puts the mic in front of the next cab speaker. It would be a NIGHTMARE and just about impossible to do a gig like that if the next bands guitar player had a direct rig like an Axe FX because the soundguy would now need to run a direct cable from the Axe FX to the snake and then create a proper mix so the guitar player could hear it. Then, he would have to balance that direct sound with the live mic sounds. Then.. hopefully he would have a good enough monitoring system to create sub mixes so the band could get a balanced sound onstage but the guitar player could get the correct clean mix for his guitar sound. I would say its safe to say that 95% of the sound guys out there don't like to run the guitars direct no matter what the rig is.

I have gigged with my Axe Fx live as well as through my half stacks. Here's my take on it, the first time I used my Axe Fx live my drummer thought it was the most incredible live sound I had ever had with the band. My singer OTOH, didn't like it only because of looks! His only complaint about it was there was no big amp on stage behind me and since we do 80's covers wants the amp there. The sound was set it and leave type PA that we bring in ourselves. I run two mic cables live. One to the snake/board and the other to an onstage QSC powered monitor that I place on a tripod stand.
If you are at the mercy of another soundman and are worried they will ruin your tone with poor mixes, well guess what? They will also ruin your lovely Marshall 4x12's tone with an SM 57 mic in front of it too. The Axe Fx also solves another problem that you don't realize you have till you go to a gig and it rears its ugly head. That being noise you didn't have at practice but now something is buzzing/humming onstage from your amp/pedalboad/rack etc... All your effects are within the Axe Fx and there is nothing else to trouble shoot on stage, no extra noise, etc... The Axe Fx offers a lot of advantages that make it welll suited to live use. I still use my 1/2 stacks for live use, currently my Rhoads Marshall but its not because the Axe Fx can't do it well. Its because I enjoy playing different gear and a white Marshall on stage is just too cool But as far as consistency goes the Axe Fx wins hands down. Besides, the Axe Fx can produce the most beautiful clean tones then with a stomp of a switch go to the next channel which is downright brutal! Most conventional amps are good at one sound and so so on the others. Most guys, whether they are good or bad, usually remark at how good the Axe Fx sounds and how easy it was for them to run it through the PA.
One more thing about the Axe-Fx, I don't think it will go the way of the guitar synth. Cliff was a genius for inventing the Axe Fx and one thing he is very good about is updates. He constantly updates the software and releases it free for us users to update our units. Speaking of which, I'm way behind on my Ultra's Firmware and need to update it when I get back from NAMM

[jgcable]

I have gigged with my Axe Fx live as well as through my half stacks. Here's my take on it, the first time I used my Axe Fx live my drummer thought it was the most incredible live sound I had ever had with the band. My singer OTOH, didn't like it only because of looks! His only complaint about it was there was no big amp on stage behind me and since we do 80's covers wants the amp there. The sound was set it and leave type PA that we bring in ourselves. I run two mic cables live. One to the snake/board and the other to an onstage QSC powered monitor that I place on a tripod stand.
If you are at the mercy of another soundman and are worried they will ruin your tone with poor mixes, well guess what? They will also ruin your lovely Marshall 4x12's tone with an SM 57 mic in front of it too. The Axe Fx also solves another problem that you don't realize you have till you go to a gig and it rears its ugly head. That being noise you didn't have at practice but now something is buzzing/humming onstage from your amp/pedalboad/rack etc... All your effects are within the Axe Fx and there is nothing else to trouble shoot on stage, no extra noise, etc... The Axe Fx offers a lot of advantages that make it welll suited to live use. I still use my 1/2 stacks for live use, currently my Rhoads Marshall but its not because the Axe Fx can't do it well. Its because I enjoy playing different gear and a white Marshall on stage is just too cool But as far as consistency goes the Axe Fx wins hands down. Besides, the Axe Fx can produce the most beautiful clean tones then with a stomp of a switch go to the next channel which is downright brutal! Most conventional amps are good at one sound and so so on the others. Most guys, whether they are good or bad, usually remark at how good the Axe Fx sounds and how easy it was for them to run it through the PA.
One more thing about the Axe-Fx, I don't think it will go the way of the guitar synth. Cliff was a genius for inventing the Axe Fx and one thing he is very good about is updates. He constantly updates the software and releases it free for us users to update our units. Speaking of which, I'm way behind on my Ultra's Firmware and need to update it when I get back from NAMM

It is a hundred times easier for a sound guy to mess up a direct rig. On top of that.. you are at the mercy of the monitor sub mix. With a traditional high powered half stack, if the sound guy is mucking it up bad or if the PA or more importantly the monitoring system sucks you always have the option to CRANK IT UP. Can't do that with a direct rig. I know from first hand experience using a GT8 direct. The monitor mix was aweful and I had to stand in front of a PA speaker to the right of the stage in order to hear my guitar. It was aweful.
As you must have read... if you bring your own PA the Axe FX or any direct modeling rig is great.
I will go out on a limb and say that most regularly gigging bands don't bring their own PA's and most of the time what type of PA and monitoring system is a surprise.
You answered my question anyway when you said that you use your white Marshall RR 1/2 stacks for live use. Most live players use real amps live. Especially metal players. I would love to hear that RR signature amp live. Your sound must be insanely good.

[VitaminG]

It is a hundred times easier for a sound guy to mess up a direct rig. On top of that.. you are at the mercy of the monitor sub mix.

but Rudy just said he runs two outs from the AxeFX - one to the board, another to his onstage monitor. So he isn't reliant on the soundguy for his monitoring, even if the guy is screwing up the band mix

[MOSHWITZ]

Can the Axe-fx mimic changes in preamp and power tubes in a Amp? I swapped the JJ preamp tubes in my mark iv with Sovtek preamps and the amp got some "bite" in the tone and became slightly more tight. Can the afx mimic those?

Hmm...interesting thought.

There are a lot of ways to tweak the Axe-FX's amp in it's Advanced Parameters but to be blunt, I have not really dabbled in them because I haven't found the need to (though I should). I do know there are parameters than can affect how loose or tight an amp feels and there are plenty of ways to control bite with EQ (treble, brightness, presence, high end rolloff) in the Amp block itself.

Sup?
You can't change tubes, but you can change parameters that effect the tubes like the Bias, and then you can adjust the transformer, B+ capacitance, bright cap value,,,,,well,,,,,,hell, these are the advanced parameters of the amp sim...and the can have a more profound effect on the tone than I have ever got swapping tubes,,,,,

• LOWCUT FREQ - This control allows you to reduce the amount of low frequency content at the input to the amp simulator. This parameter defaults to a value for each type but can be overridden if desired. A higher value will "tighten" up the amp, since what a user calls "flub" is low frequency distortion.
• Bright Cap - This control sets the value of the “bright cap” across the virtual drive control. Increasing this will make the preamp brighter and vice-versa. The Bright Switch must be engaged for the effect to be audible.
• TONESTACK TYPE- This control allows you to select the type of tone stack used in the simulation. The tone stack will default to either ACTIVE or PASSIVE depending upon the DEFAULT TONESTK parameter in the GLOBAL menu. When set to ACTIVE, the tone stack is a semi-parametric EQ with +/- 12 dB of range for each control. When set to PASSIVE, the tone stack is an exact digital recreation of the classic tone stack used in the amplifier being simulated. You can also choose from a wide selection of other tone stacks if desired. Fifteen classic passive tone stacks are available to choose from. So you can dial up a Plexi model and change the tone stack to a Blackface or Top Boost, etc yielding hybrid amp sounds.
• WARMTH-This controls the power tube and transformer interaction. Set to zero to deactivate. Increasing this value increases the apparent warmth and depth of the tone, especially as the power amp is driven harder. This parameter defaults to a non-zero value whenever a new amp type is chosen.
• THUMP- This models the output transformer interaction with the speaker impedance. The amount of thump is adjustable from 0 – 10. Value is set to a default value when amp type is selected. When using a tube power amp you may want to set this to zero as the tube power amp will produce it’s own thump. To facilitate this the global power amp bypass has an additional mode that deactivates the thump modeling.
• TONE FREQ - This control allows you to alter the center frequency of the tone controls. You can use this to change the character of the preamp. This parameter defaults to a value for each type but can be overridden if desired.
• XFRMR MATCH - This controls the effective output impedance of the power amp simulation. Higher values increase the impedance which increases the interaction of the virtual speaker with the power amp. Higher values give a fuller, looser sound, while low values can be used to achieve a more focused sound.
• XFORMER LF - This control allows you to alter the lower cutoff frequency of the “output transformer”. Increase this value to simulate an old, under-designed transformer as was common in some vintage amps. This parameter defaults to a value for each type but can be overridden if desired.
• XFORMER HF - This control allows you to alter the upper cutoff frequency of the “output transformer”. Decrease this value to simulate narrow bandwidth transformers as were common in some vintage amps. This parameter defaults to a value for each type but can be overridden if desired.
• TONE LOCATION - This control allows you to alter the location of the tone stack. “PRE” places the tone stack at the input to the amp, “POST” places the stack between the preamp and power amp. "END" places the tonestack after the power amp simulation. This parameter defaults to a value for each type but can be overridden if desired.
• PWR TUBE BIAS - This parameter can be used to fine-tune the virtual power tubes’ bias points. A value of zero corresponds to full Class B operation. A value of one corresponds to full Class A operation. Values in between are therefore Class AB. For traditional Class AB power amps (i.e. Marshall, Fender, etc.) a value of 0.35 is considered the “optimum” bias point. For traditional Class A amps, (which aren’t really true Class A, i.e. Vox, Matchless, etc.) a setting of 0.75 corresponds to the typical bias value these amps are run at. Lower values of bias increase the amount of crossover distortion, add “hair” to the sound and make the power amp more “explosive” since the transfer function slope increases with input level. Higher values of bias yield less distortion, “rounder” sound, more linear response and a more compressed feel. At high Master Volume settings the effect of bias may be subtle. As the Master Volume is turned down the audible effect is more pronounced. Increasing the Damping increases the linearity of the power amp and also serves to reduce the audible effect of the bias control.
• PRESENCE FREQ - This control allows you to alter the center frequency of the presence control. This parameter defaults to a value for each type but can be overridden if desired.
• B+ CAPACITANCE - This control allows you to alter the amount of filtering capacitance on the power amp virtual power supply. Higher values will make the response stiffer and “faster”. Lower values will give a looser feel. Use along with the SAG control to fine-tune the response.
• SPKR RES FREQ - This control allows adjustment of the virtual speaker impedance's resonance frequency. It defaults to the value of the cabinet that would typically be paired with the TYPE, but can be adjusted to retune the response. This control has the most effect when the Depth controls is fairly high (as depth controls the amp output impedance).STABILIZER - Under certain extreme settings of DEPTH and DAMP the simulation may go unstable. This would happen in a real amplifier as well. The STABILIZER switch alters the “grid capacitor” values to ensure stability. (Alternatively you can reduce the XFORMER LF value. This will usually remove any instability, although occasionally it won't. In those cases you can use the STABILIZER.)

MOSHON
DAVE

[jgcable]

Sup?
You can't change tubes, but you can change parameters that effect the tubes like the Bias, and then you can adjust the transformer, B+ capacitance, bright cap value,,,,,well,,,,,,hell, these are the advanced parameters of the amp sim...and the can have a more profound effect on the tone than I have ever got swapping tubes,,,,,


MOSHON
DAVE

That really is amazing. Thats just about everything you could ever imagine tweaking on a bench by a tech!
I would probably become a hermit if I got an Axe FX because I LOVE to tweak.

[jgcable]

but Rudy just said he runs two outs from the AxeFX - one to the board, another to his onstage monitor. So he isn't reliant on the soundguy for his monitoring, even if the guy is screwing up the band mix

And what does the rest of the band do if they can't hear him.. unless they all have onstage monitors.
All I am saying.. from mucho experience playing live... is that most if not all sound guys frown on direct guitar rigs. Call it lazyness.. call it anything you want. Its reality.

[Hellbat]

I don't see how micing an FRFR monitor would be any different from micing a cabinet if the sound guy was anti-direct input friendly. If it's doing it's job modeling properly there shouldn't be a difference between a real JCM800 stack and one being fully modelled coming out of a FRFR monitor. From the microphone's point of view they should be clones. Then they can do the monitor mix as old school as they want to.

If you are worried about having to crank it on stage to get your performance right, get a Mackie SRM450 or something similar and large. Thats the beauty of the Axe-FX to me. It isn't that it is perfect for one kind of setup. It's that it can be configured to be used perfectly in any kind of setup. I think everything about it was very well thought out and I think it is currently the best modelling product on the market as far as design. The only thing I am on the fence about is the sound. I'd be interested to hear it from somebody I trust that it gets the right sounds for the amp models I care about. (Uber, JCM800, Recto and others.)

[roodyrocker]

Maybe I didn't quite explain it right. I have a QSC powred monitor onstage. With that I can turn up my stage volume just like a traditonal 4x12 cab if need be. The big difference is that with a 4x12 if you turn up your stage volume you piss off the sound man. With the QSC powered monitor its separate from the mic cable going to the board. There was never an issue wth anyone in the band not hearing me onstage and they play loud! Bottom line is the Axe Fx is very useable live. It takes the guesswork out of proper mic placement and is more consistent than anything else out there. If you happen to end up with a bad soundman it makes no difference if he is at the controls of an SM57 mic'd 4x12 cab or a direct line from the Axe FX. In fact the great tone you think you have on stage is never heard out front by the audience, they hear mainly what crappy sound they're getting through the PA with the wonderful sound guy at the controls

The Rhoads Marshall is an entirely different beast. I basically have two sounds only and they come from a single channel . Guitar volume knob up gives distortion, volume knob down gives cleans. I also have to run an attenuator to keep the volume at a sane level. If you like old school Marshall tones, this is it

[jgcable]

Got it. I was under the assumption that you guys were running your Axe FX rig direct and using the monitoring system to hear yourself. Thats DANGEROUS and frowned upon at most clubs and by most sound guys.
If you are bringing an entire amplification system for your Axe FX thats another story all together but that does negate the ease of transportation theory.
I am looking forward to one day hearing one live with a band. Especially a 2 guitar band where the other guitar player is playing a traditional amp like a Rectifier or a
Marshall.
I still find it impossible to believe that any modeling rig of any kind on the planet can compete with a Triple Rectifier live. I saw a band a few years ago where the guitar player had a Triple rectifier head pumped through 2 full stacks of Marshall cabs. On the floor he had a wah and a few minor pedals. They were playing outside at Bike Week in Daytona. The song that sticks in my mind is Mother by Danzig. They were extremely loud and a big part of the guitar sound was coming directly out of those 2 stacks or cabs and the Triple Rectifier.
I will say with 100 % certainty that there is no modeling rig on the planet in any configuration that could pump that much sound pressure, presence and volume out. It was damned inspiring.
I also used to own a Vetta 2. Actually, I had a few of them. I used them with Marshall 1960 cabs. My bandmate at the time was playing a Dual Rectifier and a Mesa 4 x 12 oversized cab. Now I will tell you that the Vetta 2 is an EXTREMELY loud amp and in sheer volume.. it could hang with the Rectifier no problem. What it couldn't do is cut through the mix. The Rectifier presence and ability to move massive amounts of air were crushing. His guitar sound penetrated your body. My modeling rig was just REALLY LOUD. Kind of like a REALLY loud stereo.
Although my modeling rig was probably louder.. it got smoked and stepped on when put next to a real high powered tube amp.
Here is another example.. have any of you ever owned a Hiwatt Head or an old Marshall Plexi 100 watt head? They are both incredibly loud amps. Although you could dial up a model of it with the Axe FX ( I heard clips online and they are dead nuts perfect and actually better sounding than the originals!!)you could NEVER NEVER NEVER match the presence and the ability to move soundwaves with a modeling rig.
Do most of us need to play at that volume level. The answer is no.
Do we? Well, we all try as much as possible. At least I do. Call me crazy.. but I really enjoy playing LOUD out of a high powered tube amp stack.
I saw Rascal Flatts a few years ago and their guitar player uses Bogner Ecstacy 101B's. He has 4 of them I think powering 2 or 3 full stacks of Bogner cabs.
I am sure he can afford any rig money can buy.
He had probably the best guitar sound I have ever heard. It was insane.
That is what sold me on high powered tube amps live. That.. and the fact that since I go to a fair amount of concerts every year and I am always looking for what types of amps the guitar players are using.
Same thing with gigging at local bars or large clugs.
Its usually... Marshall DSL or TSL, Mesa Rectifiers, occassional Bogner Ecstacy or Engl's or VHT's , Peavey 5150's or Randall's.

I do use modeling rigs at home and in the recording studio for layering. I am a HUGE fan of the POD X3 and those Axe FX clips along with the Digidesign and Digitech clops are incredible. We also have several high end guitar amp plug ins in our studio that we use. There is definately a place for modeling. I just don't think its live.
Thats enough for me.

[marcus]

There is a theory of electrical engineering that states that any analog system can be reproduced exactly by a digital system. The upshot of this is that, no, there isn't anything magical about tube amps that causes them to move more air or cut through the mix better than a digital amp.

I have for the most part been unimpressed with modelers, but the techniques used to design them have been evolving. The Axe-FX uses a radically different technique to reproduce tube amp sounds than just about anything else, and you can really hear and feel the difference. I really like tube amps, and have some nice ones, but since getting my Axe-FX they are getting no use whatsoever. This thing is the real deal, and I am expecting this kind of technology to get better and better. That can't really be said for tube amps.

[Spivonious]

Tube amps tend to slight compress the sound and have a midrange push, so they will naturally cut through the mix better. Solid state amps generally have a flat response so if you set them up like a tube amp, you will not cut as much.

Nothing that can't be overcome with some EQ and effects, but this could account for the tube amp "magic". One thing that modellers have a very difficult time mimicking is tube breakup. That is what keeps me from moving completely to modeling amps.

[marcus]

Tube amps tend to slight compress the sound and have a midrange push, so they will naturally cut through the mix better. Solid state amps generally have a flat response so if you set them up like a tube amp, you will not cut as much.

Nothing that can't be overcome with some EQ and effects, but this could account for the tube amp "magic". One thing that modellers have a very difficult time mimicking is tube breakup. That is what keeps me from moving completely to modeling amps.

The Axe-FX models all of these effects.

[emperor_black]

The Axe-FX models all of these effects.

More of a question and not a rebuttal...Can it model the way the components of a vintage amp will "settle" over time? My Mark IV type A early 90's will sound significantly different than a newer Mark IV type B. Even if the models were created looking at the amp's schematic, there is no way one can predict which component is going to settle faster than another. That's one of the reasons an unmodded vintage amp is so highly valued because "time" has made it the way it sounds.