Medical devices

[Bengal]

Yep, we don't need the goverment to step in here. But we DO need them to figure out the mess in baseball. That makes perfect sense...

Medicade has worked pretty good so far...

Get the Special Interest out of politics and maybe we can see some change here. Until that happens, nothing will change...

[Tashtego]

We could fund socialized health care by shrugging off all the overseas security commitments we have burdened ourselves with. 680 Billion or so right now. Why should we pay so much for maintaining stability all over the place?

[Cygnus X1]

We could fund socialized health care by shrugging off all the overseas security commitments we have burdened ourselves with. 680 Billion or so right now. Why should we pay so much for maintaining stability all over the place?

This is my point. Look at Social Security.
What a wonderful idea! (Sarcasm dripping...)
So, they forcibly remove money from my paycheck to secure my retirement,
or possible disability. Wonderful for this I can expect a 3 percent or so return, not adjusted for inflation. Meanwhile, the politicians spend the money from this so called "trust fund" (or Promise to our Seniors), and use it for whatever Congress decides. Like, maybe 12 percent a year raises for themselves. And the worst part is, members of congress don't have to rely on the social security system for retirement. They have voted themselves a much better plan, using taxpayer dollars.

I can go on and on. Why the FUCK would anyone think these clowns could "fix" the medical care system, even with billions of dollars from defense spending?

Huh?

[Tashtego]

I'm missing the connection you are making between ss and our over extended foreign security commitments. Do I think congress is a den of thieves and fools? Yes, but it's what we have for gov. As the saying goes, it's the worst form of gov. except for everything else. I've heard France has a fairly well working socialized medicine program. Perhaps a Frenchie could chime in. I guess I just think medicine is one of those areas where there isn't a market economy at work anyway.

[dg]

It doesn't have to be a completely socialized system. The Swiss system isn't. They still have market competition & their drug companies still make profits & do good research. The avg. cost is about 1/3 less than Americans pay, because of 2 big factors: price controls, and mandatory participation (with subsidies for the less well-off). Mandatory participation is very controversial here, because Americans don't like being told what they have to do. The problem is that without mandatory participation, lot's of the healthier, younger people don't get insurance. They'd rather take the risk. The system gets weighted toward the old & less healthy, and costs stay high.

Article on the Swiss system:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_427691.html

[GodOfRhythm]

Libertarian attitudes and good healthcare do not mix.

[Tashtego]

interesting article. I'm not sure it really represents much of an improvement though. Perhaps some. I was paying about 850 for what I think was a good family plan, against the 680 ave. they cite. I'm not sure where they get the 1/3 figure from.

[Cygnus X1]

I'm missing the connection you are making between ss and our over extended foreign security commitments. Do I think congress is a den of thieves and fools? Yes, but it's what we have for gov. As the saying goes, it's the worst form of gov. except for everything else. I've heard France has a fairly well working socialized medicine program. Perhaps a Frenchie could chime in. I guess I just think medicine is one of those areas where there isn't a market economy at work anyway.

The connection is this: Social Security is an EXAMPLE of how our government mismanages social programs.The list of like examples is long.

Too often, the implication (implicit, or explicit) that money "wasted" elsewhere, such as Pentagon spending, is better applied towards social programs. The defense budget has proven just as inefficient as many other
programs.

The ultimate point is, since there is plenty of proof that politicians, lobbyists, and entrenched, unnaccountable beaurucrats have little real interest in making things actually work, why should they be trusted with more responsibility? That's why I get so heated about it...

Competition and accountabilty are the only things that make a better product. Legislation should be used only for consumer protection against outright fraudulent practices.

Medical? First step is tort reform. Price controls are artificial and encourage fraud.

[Tashtego]

price controls exist already, we just pay more for medicine to subsidize the sales of those same drugs in countries that fix prices.

I'm with you on tort reform all the way, I agree that socialized medicine will be imperfect, I agree there will be waste and fraud (far more than in Teutonic Switzerland) but medicine isn't a free market economy now.

[dg]

Agreed that tort reform has to be part of the solution. It's interesting to note, though, how quick people even right here on the board are to mention lawsuits whenever something bad happens to someone here. It's become deeply ingrained in our thinking. And that brings up other reforms which probably will have to happen before anything else positive can, like campaign finance reform, and reigning in the lobbyists. No way tort reform or any kind of real cost controls will happen otherwise, imo. McCain & Obama have both talked about such reforms, and McCain actually tried to get a bipartisan campaign finance reform passed, so maybe there is some hope, but the system is entrenched and it'll be hard to change.

[nhspike]

If you think the cost of health care is crazy now... just wait 'til it's free!

"Caution: Coffee is hot"
How much of the cost we all pay is a direct result of the insurance required in order to offset silly claims?
Hmmmmmm...
It all somehow seems connected to paper-pushers (or, should I say, those that produce nothing, only paper) once again.
GRRRRR

[dg]

Agreed, single-payer isn't the answer. Reform can happen without it having to be single-payer.

[Cygnus X1]

If you think the cost of health care is crazy now... just wait 'til it's free!

"Caution: Coffee is hot"
How much of the cost we all pay is a direct result of the insurance required in order to offset silly claims?
Hmmmmmm...
It all somehow seems connected to paper-pushers (or, should I say, those that produce nothing, only paper) once again.
GRRRRR

paper-pushers=unnaccountable ,unelectable,self serving bearucrats.
Kind of the like the old Soviet Union systems.

I can say the same for our government getting into guaranteed college loans. All of the sudden, tuition prices shot up exponentially, because of the "free" government handout. And why should the student care? It's a free loan...

Or, look into the "school lunch programs"...if the schools want more federal dollars, classify as many students as possible "free lunch", or "learning disabled"...

Or the political agendas chasing grant research programs for colleges.
Want more money? Just skew the result to get more funding...

It goes on and on.

[Cygnus X1]

Libertarian attitudes and good healthcare do not mix.

Good to see you, GoR...

I don't understand your claim, but I am distrustful of our politicians.
Too much influence peddling by lobbyists, special interests, and not enough care for the constituents. But ALL of them take care of the voters in other ways enough for the constituents to shrug off the corruption.

[Tashtego]

A pure market approach to health care is not going to happen. We don't have it now and we are not ever going to. What we have now isn't sustainable either. Why should we pay more for medicine invented by US companies? So that Canadians can enjoy the benefit of the drugs developed here that never would be developed in their country because of price controls?