27 killed at an elementary school

[javert]

2.97 deaths per 100,000 were done with a firearm. Pretty damn low to me.

US has highest ownership rate 88 guns per 100 people, yet we're 28th in the ranking for deaths by a gun.
Honduras, with a ownership rate of 6.2 guns per 100 people (same ownership rate as the UK btw) is number one in murders with a gun.
Denmark has an ownership rate of 12 guns per 100 people.

31% of Denmark's homicides are with a firearm, 60% in the US and 83% in Honduras.

Point here is this has nothing to do with the amount or their availability.
It has to do with people and their willingness to use them against other people.

Well, that's one way to look at it. But seriously, a factor of two is not significant, you think? You're also forgetting the total number of murders by firemarms there, though. That number is 0.27 per 100,000 citizens in Denmark (and about the same for the neighbouring countries it seems). It's 2.97 in the states. That's quite a big difference. Also, if only criminals own guns in a country and commit many of the murders, then it follows that a big percentage will be committed by gun owners. The comparison of those numbers is pointless in that sense.

I would like to add that I did grow up in a home with guns. My dad is a hunter and we had hunting and practice rifles in our home, and my dad taught me to treat guns with respect. Also, it was not my intention to make this "your country against mine". The circumstances and the history are very different, I'd say. I understand fully well that the situation in the states wrt. guns has a lot to do with the history. However, like dvscool wrote, it doesn't seem like more guns is the answer...

[Shawn Lutz]

this is about mental illness, not guns. People who want to kill with guns will get their hands on guns whether stricter gun law of if guns are outlawed entirely. Coke and Heroin are illegal but if I wanted some I could find it rather easily...same will be said about guns. If someone wants somethign bad enough...laws don't matter. I will say this, if a teacher was carrying there would be a lot less casualties. I've owned a firearm since I was 13years old, I haven't killed anyone

The douche-bag was insane...came from NJ and killed his mother who was a teacher at the school along with a lot of children and faculty.

[Nightbat]

[sarcasm]I'm really looking forward to all those professional opinions putting blame on everything they can find, just because the dead fucking bastard can't be brought to trial anymore[/sarcasm]

[rjohnstone]

Well, that's one way to look at it. But seriously, a factor of two is not significant, you think? You're also forgetting the total number of murders by firemarms there, though. That number is 0.27 per 100,000 citizens in Denmark (and about the same for the neighbouring countries it seems). It's 2.97 in the states. That's quite a big difference. Also, if only criminals own guns in a country and commit many of the murders, then it follows that a big percentage will be committed by gun owners.

I would like to add that I did grow up in a how with guns. My dad is a hunter and we had hunting and practice rifles in our home, and my dad taught me to treat guns with respect. Also, it was not my intention to make this "your country against mine". The circumstances and the history are very different, I'd say. I understand fully well that the situation in the states wrt. guns has a lot to do with the history. However, like dvscool wrote, it doesn't seem like more guns is the answer...

Was not pitting one country against the other.
Just quoting data.
Other things never factored into many of these charts is population density in the areas where the crime is higher.
Higher population density combined with lower income and educational quality tends to have higher rates of homicides involving a firearm.
So one cannot do a straight up comparison based solely on these numbers.
It has too many holes in the data.
You are drawing conclusions about the results without all the relevant data required to make up the full picture.

So again, not arguing for or against anything here, just stating the facts in hand.

[javert]

this is about mental illness, not guns. People who want to kill with guns will get their hands on guns whether stricter gun law of if guns are outlawed entirely. Coke and Heroin are illegal but if I wanted some I could find it rather easily...same will be said about guns. If someone wants somethign bad enough...laws don't matter. I will say this, if a teacher was carrying there would be a lot less casualties. I've owned a firearm since I was 13years old, I haven't killed anyone

The douche-bag was insane...came from NJ and killed his mother who was a teacher at the school along with a lot of children and faculty.

Yes, the problem is keeping weapons out of the hands of people who are prone to making bad decisions. The problem is, of course, how to do that. Either you try to come up with some criteria (and people generally don't like having to take a test and be labeled "sane" or whatever to be approved for driving a car of getting a gun) or you limit the total number of weapons in circulation.

[javert]

Was not pitting one country against the other.
Just quoting data.
Other things never factored into many of these charts is population density in the areas where the crime is higher.
Higher population density combined with lower income and educational quality tends to have higher rates of homicides involving a firearm. So one cannot do a straight up comparison based solely on these numbers. It has too many holes in the data.
You are drawing conclusions about the results without all the relevant data required to make up the full picture. So again, not arguing for or against anything here, just stating the facts in hand.

I think you are onto something but you are not completely correct in saying this. There is no denying that there are more deaths by firearms in USA than in northern Europe - that's a fact. What you have to be careful about is arguing what the cause might be. As they teach in any basic statistics course, correlation does not equate causation, and you're right that the cause might be that, generally speaking, people are more well-educated in northern Europe than in the states. You could even argue that it might be safe to let us all carry guns here and give it a try. But that doesn't change the circumstances in the states.

[Whoopu2]

The USA cannot, and should not be compared to Europe. There's an estimated 200,000,000 guns in this country and they aren't going anywhere. No amount of additional legislation and "feel good" laws would have prevented this tragedy any more than the "Firearm Free Zone" sign on the school's campus.


To the point at hand: this is the most depressing news I've heard in a while, I really can't even imagine how the families must feel. My thoughts are with them.

[xenophobe]

20 minutes from my house. I have friends with kids that go or went to that school. Anyway.. do you know what my yahoo friends who all have carrier permits and all have multiple guns said about this? They said guns don't kill people. People kill people.
I think the more appropriate statement is... guns don't kill people. People witih guns kill people.
When my friends went for all their classes and for the hearings with the state police to get their concealed weapons permits they always had stories of how many crazy sick bastards were there getting carrier permits.
I don't know what the answer is but you have to wonder when you hear that England has 6.2 people out of 100 that own guns and the USA has the highest percentage in the world with 88 out of 100 and then you hear that in 2009 there were 39 people killed in England with guns and in the USA it was 31,347 people. How do you argue with those statistic?

Ban guns and it'll become pipe and fertilizer bombs.

Look at Europe. There isn't much gun violence.

They have suicide bombers and IEDs instead.

/thread

Also, how many serial killers are actually active and on the loose?

[rdamaral]

Looks like he went there to kill his mother. Info is unclear but they are implying that his mother was the K Teacher, and that is why he targeted that classroom.

What a friggin tragedy.

[javert]

Ban guns and it'll become pipe and fertilizer bombs.
Look at Europe. There isn't much gun violence.
They have suicide bombers and IEDs instead.

Suicide bombers? Where?

[jgcable]

2.97 deaths per 100,000 were done with a firearm. Pretty damn low to me.

US has highest ownership rate 88 guns per 100 people, yet we're 28th in the ranking for deaths by a gun.
Honduras, with a ownership rate of 6.2 guns per 100 people (same ownership rate as the UK btw) is number one in murders with a gun.
Denmark has an ownership rate of 12 guns per 100 people.

31% of Denmark's homicides are with a firearm, 60% in the US and 83% in Honduras.

Point here is this has nothing to do with the amount or their availability.
It has to do with people and their willingness to use them against other people.

Thats fuzzy smoke and mirrors logic. Let me clarify...
The UK and the USA have similar populations. The UK has 6.2 out of 100 gun owners. Most of them are owned by hunters. The USA has 88 out of 100. Most of them are owned by hunters.
The UK had 39 deaths in 2009. The USA had over 31,347.
How do you explain this directly?

[javert]

The USA cannot, and should not be compared to Europe. There's an estimated 200,000,000 guns in this country and they aren't going anywhere. No amount of additional legislation and "feel good" laws would have prevented this tragedy any more than the "Firearm Free Zone" sign on the school's campus.

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

[jgcable]

Ban guns and it'll become pipe and fertilizer bombs.

Look at Europe. There isn't much gun violence.

They have suicide bombers and IEDs instead.

/thread

Also, how many serial killers are actually active and on the loose?

I never advocated a gun ban but.. something needs to be done. I know alot of really crazy guys who have carrying permits. Sure.. they don't have police records but they still are crazy. You don't have to take a drug test to own and carry a pistol in Connecticut. You just need to have a clean record. The experts say that the part of the brain that calculates and weighs out the consequences of your actions (the part of the brain that causes you NOT to do stupid or risky things) doesn't fully develop until a male is around 25 years old yet an 18 year old can get a permit to own a rifle or a shotgun and a 21 year old can own and carry a pistol in Connecticut. The shooter in Connecticut was 20. I have 3 kids. 22, 20 and 18. I know what a 20 year old is thinking and trust me.. most of them aren't rational thoughts. It will be interesting to find out if this killer had a permit or a license to carry or own a firearm. I am sure the NRA is praying that he bought the guns illegally.

[rjohnstone]

Thats fuzzy smoke and mirrors logic. Let me clarify...
The UK and the USA have similar populations. The UK has 6.2 out of 100 gun owners. Most of them are owned by hunters. The USA has 88 out of 100. Most of them are owned by hunters.
The UK had 39 deaths in 2009. The USA had over 31,347.
How do you explain this directly?

Similar populations???
UK... 61M in 2009
US... 305M in 2009

US 2009 homicide rate with a firearm according to the CDC was 11,493, not 31,347.

[emperor_black]

Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Federal law enforcement sources now say Connecticut school shooting gunman was Adam Lanza, 20, and not his brother Ryan Lanza, 24, as earlier reported. Adam was found dead in the school along with his mother, a kindergarten teacher there.