Whats so bad about Kahlers?

[Birdzeyeee]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

I like Kahlers better than the Washburn Wonderbar! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif[/img]

Don't like the string ball end slots on a Kahler. Poor design and they break sometimes. Strings would slip out sometimes when installing a new set. Strings also used to break like a MOFO with the Kahler. I remember buying "reinforced" strings for the Kahler specifically to improve the problem. They has brass windings to add strength by the ends. Helped somewhat.

The stiffer springs (adapted from the Kahler bass system) and short trem bar sucked. Kahler offered this because 99% of players didn't like the "squishy" spring feel and flimsy trem arms. The heavier steel arm was too short by an inch or so - and it still didn't feel like a Floyd!

DeMartini, Lynch, Viv, EVH. etc. could have choosen any locking system they wished, yet they chose a non-recessed Floyd. Bottom line, I'd take the Floyd set up like the "masters" or use a fixed bridge / stop tailpiece and focus more on technique / playing skills. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Orchid]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

I need help for my guitar, it's got a Kahler 2320. I figured out how to adjust the spring tension, but now I need to know how to raise/lower the action, because I detuned it the other day and the 1st string was hitting the frets. Also, it's going out of tune pretty easily when I use the bar.

[El_Kabong]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

I bought one of the new Kahler bridges. But it's the hard tail version. It sounds and feels great. I just don't feel like locking strings anymore, so I will do without th whammy.

I am not a big floyd fan, those little blocks are so easy to overtighten. I have cracked more than my fair share. I also prefer the ball end of strings at the bridge, not at the machine head.

But to each their own. The best thing is that we have a choice.

[Cuthbert]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

[ QUOTE ]
I need help for my guitar, it's got a Kahler 2320. I figured out how to adjust the spring tension, but now I need to know how to raise/lower the action, because I detuned it the other day and the 1st string was hitting the frets. Also, it's going out of tune pretty easily when I use the bar.

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http://www.kahlerparts.com/Part_Pages/Downloads.htm

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Orchid]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I need help for my guitar, it's got a Kahler 2320. I figured out how to adjust the spring tension, but now I need to know how to raise/lower the action, because I detuned it the other day and the 1st string was hitting the frets. Also, it's going out of tune pretty easily when I use the bar.

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http://www.kahlerparts.com/Part_Pages/Downloads.htm

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Yeah I already got that, but that seems more like a diagram rather than an explanation on how to set it up.

[Cuthbert]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

If you are downlaoding the setup manual of the 2200 and 2300 it explain which tools to use and where to use it in order to change the stiffness of the tremolo, the action, the intonation and the spacin of the saddles...

[BLOOD SPLATTER]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

"What's so bad about Kahlers?" <font color="red"> ....nothing!! </font>

[toejam]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

[ QUOTE ]
I like Kahlers better than the Washburn Wonderbar! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif[/img]



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LOL I actually liked the Wonderbar better than the Kahler. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[toejam]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

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I kinda like the fact that I can palm-mute as I want to on a Kahler equipped guitar and not worry about going sharp

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If you can't palm mute on a Floyd without it going sharp, you've got a technique issue you've gotta work on. [img]/images/graemlins/poke.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[roodyrocker]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

I have guitars with both types of trems as well as string thru and fixed bridge. I like them all and see no big advantage to a Floyd as many here claim. The Kahler has always been just as stable for me as a Floyd, it doesn't go sharp or flat when you bend strings while also hitting an open string as a Floyd does, you don't loose those little string blocks like on a Floyd, the whole thing doesn't go out of tune if you break a string live as a Floyd does, its faster/easier to string up than a Floyd, and the thing doesn't fall out of the guitar if I remove all the strings at the same time as Floyd would.
So whats so bad about a Kahler then? As blood Splatter said...Nothing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Rudy

[Birdzeyeee]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

I prefer Kahlers better on early to mid 80's Charvels only because the Floyd nut allen screws were drilled completely thru the neck. All luthiers and guitar repairmen have advised that this weakened the already weakest point of the neck, causing the tendency for all sorts of neck issues including complete breakage.

The early Floyd locking nuts were intended to be used on strat headstock necks which have thicker wood to compensate as opposed to the more fragile Charvel pointies. George Lynch had Kahler lock nuts on his Charvel Strat pointies with non-recessed Floyds. Remember the reverse pointy Sub graphic? This was the reason.

Guys like Lynch, DeMartini, Viv Campbell, all used strathead Charvels with non-recessed Floyds cause the headstocks were a better durability match for the early Floyd lock nut.

On the new Charvels, Kahlers are not even offered. That should tell you something. In the early to mid 80's, a Charvel with a Kahler was always a few hundred bucks cheaper than the same guitar Floyd Rose equipped. But the Floyd nut was an issue with a pointy until Floyd changed their design later on.

On my Kahler equipped Charvels, I don't use the bar at all and leave the locking nut unlocked. But I would rather a vintage trem screwed down like a fixed bridge vs. a Kahler system.

[lerxstcat]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

[ QUOTE ]
1. Hard to get parts for.

2. All the most talented 80's guitar heros; ie: Lynch, EVH. DeMartini used non-recessed Floyd Roses.

3. The rollers are a pain in the ass (strings would hang up, etc.) and the trem arm was flimsy.

The steel ones are better than the brass ones. But they still are a very distant second to a correctly set up non-recessed Floyd Rose. If I can't have this Floyd setup, my next choices would be string thru or stop tail.

Its funny how in '85 Kahler switched to the heavier bar and springs to try and be more like Floyd Rose.

If you forced me to use a Kahler, this would be my setup preferences: stainless steel with soft springs, palm control arm, keep the system set up nice, keep the rollers oiled, etc. That would be the best setup for a Kahler. And I would only use it about half or less of the time I would use a Floyd.

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1. You can buy incomplete Kahlers on Ebay for little money.
So it has one saddle missing but you paid $35 for all the parts you'll probably ever need. Kahlers don't break parts as often as Floyds do. I have guitars with Kahlers that are 20 years old and nothing has had to be replaced. Of course I clean and oil them every string change; that's pretty much all you have to do.

2. As said above, Friedman and Mustaine used Kahlers for a long time. Mustaine's so-so, but Friedman smokes everybody you named. He is much more of a master than EVH, Lynch or DeMartini.

3. As I said above, if you lube the moving parts every couple of months the rollers will never sieze up. Now I admit if you use heavy strings Kahlers are problematic, but as long as it's 10s or lighter, no problems. Again, though, I have a parts trem I got for $35 off Ebay and also a Kahler Spyder that's a Floyd-style, also bought for $35 off Ebay, which is a bit nicer than a regular Floyd.

The lack of a lock at the bridge and the weaker locking clamp are the Kahler's flaws. If you bend the string ends over the cam the ball ends will stay put and return to zero.
If you have problems with tuning it's usually the locking clamp getting grooved on the underside where you can't see it. But the tuning stability you have regarding unison bends, double stops and when you break a string, are big pluses. Frankly I don't wank on the whammy as much as I used to, but you can do it pretty well on the Kahler as the Floyd if you're not going nuts with it every minute. I also have Floyded guitars and enjoy them for their attributes as well, and even a couple with the Wonderbar, which has most of the pluses of the Kahler and can be put on and taken off a guitar without leaving a big crater.

Socket wrench vs. pipe wrench vs. box wrench~! Which one's best? Depends on the job you need to do, right? I love the fact that it's not just Bigsbys and Strat-type trems anymore!

[scaristei]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

I like them both....they are both different and the "differences" make me play a little differently....But... as far as Kahler parts being hard to find....Oh please crawl out from under your rock ! For the past year Kahler has been back in business (just google it - you will find the site) and you can buy any part you need, including new units ! I just purchased six string screws...!
Now it is still cheaper to find it on ebay (before I found their site, I purchased two complete tremolo units for "parts"), but they are definitely back "in business" and parts are clearly available ! Oh, you don't have to worry about any of their parts not fitting like you do with the floyds - licensed units - because they are all made by the same place ! ! !!

[toejam]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

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As said above, Friedman and Mustaine used Kahlers for a long time. Mustaine's so-so, but Friedman smokes everybody you named.

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Yeah, but they used the fixed bridge models. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Chrisb]

Re: Whats so bad about Kahlers?

The Kahler Flat Mount is the ugliest trem out there in my opinion. Cosmetic issues aside I've never seen one come close to staying in tune as well as a OFR or a Schaller Floyd. I've yet to try the other variations on the Kahler, there is one that doesn't look to bad cosmetically so I'd be open to trying that at some point.

The trems I like have nothing to do with who played or endorsed them, thats complete [img]/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img] In fact my favorite trem is the incredible trem on the Parker Fly. With locking tuners it can't be beat, its so responsive.

The primary reason I rag on Kahler's is because of the massive amount of space they take up compared to a recessed floyd. But given a choice as far as the unit itself between a vintage trem and a Kahler I'd take the Kahler design. If they just managed to compact the damn thing a little it wouldn't annoy me so much.