Advice from old time metal players...

[jgcable]

Just a suggestion... listen to an old timer if you ever get the chance. Lots of knowledge to be had. I wish I had an old school metal dude to help me out when I was just a young kid trying to make my mark. My nephews are in an original death metal band. They asked for advice because they are having trouble writing songs shorter than 6 minutes. They didn't ask me for advice. They asked their friends. Of course their friends told them that the songs are great and don't worry about the length. I told them to try to keep the songs to under 4 minutes if they want any chance of them being marketable. They responded that they would never sell their songs and that cutting them down would be selling out and their target audience loves the long songs. They currently play at basement house parties and a few all ages clubs with 7 other bands. They have big dreams to get signed and go on national and world tours. Thats awesome.
I told them that being in a band is a business and they need to always remember that. I told them that they need to write songs that they can sell to a new audience which is not their immediate friends. I told them that A&R people don't want to hear 7 minute songs by an unknown band. I told them they need to get to the hooks and the "meat" of the songs as quick as possible and to keep the intro lengths to a minimum. They can write 10 minute songs after they become famous but the goal is to GET famous first. I was told I am old and don't know shit and what the heck did I ever accomplish. I wished them good luck.
I played for 5 people, I played for 5000 people. My last gig had 1500 people in attendance. Not bad for a 51 year old school old man metal dude who doesn't know shit.
Maybe I could roadie for them once they get famous if my back holds out.

[Hellbat]

Damn rookies will probably try to gig with Axe FX's too and wonder why people with tube amps are sonically destroying them.

[jgcable]

Damn rookies will probably try to gig with Axe FX's too and wonder why people with tube amps are sonically destroying them.

They are low budget and using Line 6 Spyder Valve combo amps. For the music they are playing (death metal) they need to upgrade for sure.

[straycat]

There is a local band here(Kentucky Ugly) that keep their songs shorter which is why I like them.
Good hooks and non cookie monster vocals which is a plus.
I roadie for a band that has done lots of gigs with them and the crowd really gets into them.
When Kentucky Ugly is on the bill the crowd goes nuts, when the hard core metal bands hit the stage the crowds thin out like you wouldn't believe.
They are doing it right seems like.
http://youtu.be/gwGDf9oA45M

[Whoopu2]

I'm a metalhead till the day I die. But I've always felt this elitist, "let's be as ultra brutally heavy, uncatchy, and underground as possible" attitude that dominates so many modern metal bands, is complete bullshit. I like a hook here or there, I like harmonies, I like catchy riffs. To me one can achieve these things without "selling out." To me, these things are every bit as much a part of "metal" as brutal, crushing guitars and mosh pits.

The point of it all is to get rich and famous right? To be a "rockstar"? I suppose it may not be for some, though I suspect if they got a taste of it they would be down with being a "rockstar" as well... Establishing a core audience and staying true to them is important, but I don't think one has to abandon their core audience or beliefs in order to make it big and bring the metal to the masses.

The ironic thing about most these super-underground bands, and their elitism, is that they all sound the same. In the name of being "true" and "original", they all sound exactly the fucking same, and boring as hell. Whatever happened to the originality? The mysticism? The idea of being a "god" among mortals when onstage? These are the qualities rock was built upon, and metal turned them all up to 11. Screw this "everyday man on stage" bullshit.

Alas, this may just be my late-night drunken ramblings getting the better of me.

[Devotee]

For many, including myself, the point is not to get rich and and famous nor to be a 'rockstar'. The point is to create music, to create a lasting impact and to channel energy into a creation. The creation itself is the end, not the means to Lamborghinis and pussy. Now, whether that music will appeal to other people is another story altogether but i don't believe an artist should go out of their way to make it so. Staying true to your audience is bullshit if you ask me, you should attract an audience - not vice versa. Deliberately watering down your music or doing something that you may not feel comfortable with in the name of pleasing anyone else but yourself is exactly what 'selling out' is - it's a betrayal to yourself, to your music and your art. In any instance, fans are attracted to bands because they're doing something interesting regardless of what anyone else thinks, but once they get successful and start pandering to what fans want, things start going downhill...

For me, there's very little difference between a lot of modern mainstream Metal bands and Madonna; they're both easily digestible and equally disposable bubblegum pop music, the only difference is the former uses heavily distorted guitars.

[vampire dark]

Hey guys I have a band too ....we've played our first gig at the first of july this year and I gotta admit that we sucked.......we played a 10 song list of not easy songs and we only had 10 days to rehearse , plus we changed many songs a lot of times.Overall only 24 hours of rehearsing for a really difficult setlist.Everything was full of presure , fucking many problems with our gear and we never enjoyed it.

So if you want an advice from a new-comer is : do what you like and success comes next especially when you don't expect it......
But then it depends on what you think of as success.I believe success doesn't have to be money and shit(although its something widely known to people and almost everyone admits it ,take a look at those fuckheads that go for the money and the pussy .Fortunately it happens not at the heavy metal scene that much as in others).So I believe success is feeling nice for the music you make...Maybe what you do won't bring you to the big crowds (something that has to do with a lot of factors) ,but you will win fans that will be 100% loyal to your music.So this is success for me.
By doing so you will love it to death and no matter if you become Iron Maiden or not you will leave as a fullfiled guy.

With my band we paused for a while due to fucking summer vacations and from now and on we decided to write our own stuff .We play as I belive thrashing riffs with a heavy metal feeling and heavy metal lyrics.We have many ideas and I think that some of our songs will last something about 6 mins average , but I not concerned cause we're riffing a lot and its not a boring repeating pattern.
Will be happy to post videos and music as long as we record some or do a live performance worth to be seen.
Play the music you that love

[RobRR]

IMO, if a song feels too long, then it IS too long, simple as that. In by band, we try not to put any time limitations on anything we write. One of the more recent songs Ive written is over 7 minutes long, but its such an interesting song, always changing, high points and low points, fast parts, slow parts, clean parts... its got a little bit of everything and by the time we finish playing it, it seems like we just started. Songs can be long as long as you can keep the audience captivated, keep them not knowing whats coming next but something memorable at the same time.

I love playing metal, but the fact is, Im going to write songs that poeople want to listen to and/or buy. It is fun, but its also a business, and I want to play to more than 15 people and maybe make a few $$$ doing it.

It seems like today most bands just try to be as b000tallzzz as possible, and I cant help but laugh. And I love that everyone today is an expert on what is metal, and that only broootal bands are metal... anything else is hard rock. Bullshit, most of our songs are metal, just because Im not playing in Drop Bb and my singer isnt growling like cookie monster doesnt make it not metal. To me, hard rock is AC/DC, Led Zep, Aerosmith and the like.

Now if only I could get some certain band mates to actually commit to practice every week we might be able to try and go somewhere... but thats another thread.

[Nightbat]

A song is a good length as long as it works

Bat out of Hell, Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, would they be better if they were shorter?
are they bad being that long?

There are long stories, there are short stories, a song is nothing more (or less) than telling a story
as long as you can keep the attention of the listeners, you're doing fine

[Hellbat]

#1 tip for writing a song that people will remember the name of - Make the song title the lead line in the chorus.

[Larz]

Tell them what happened to Metallica when they finally came out with a short song with a cool riff

[Larz]

#1 tip for writing a song that people will remember the name of - Make the song title the lead line in the chorus.

Like Unskinny Bop?

[vampire dark]

People started caring about the fucking length of songs from the time we got youtube and similar stuff....they wanna try all the other songs that are there on the right area of our pc's screen ,so when they watch it they end up going"ha 6 min, fuck it, I'm gonna check that one out".....as long as you do it oldschool , put the cd and let it play you don't care about the length of it.It takes you far in the music realm(same thing with books ,there are people that don't read them cause they've got a lot of pages).

Warning: this isn't the case with a boring repeating song, where 5 min are a pain in the ass....

[markD]

uh, vampire....that is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard. youtube and the like have NOTHING to do with people caring about the length of songs!! a songs length should be, and often is, determined by the complexity of the structure. many modern "metal" bands make long songs for the sake of length - and there is nothing interesting or worthy of the length. it takes a certain skill - and i am not referring to "shred" skills - to pull of a long song and have it be good and entertaining...regardless of genre.

younger players falter at this the most. it is the desire to be perceived as being better than your peers - longer, more intricate songs equate better musicianship. that is a half truth. better musicianship can equal better long songs, but long songs don't often equal better musicians.

as a guitarist that has been gigging since 1988 (a freshman in high school), i can tell you first hand that young players often have the "gunslinger" attitude and that making music is a competition. over the years i realized that crafting the perfect 4 minute song is A LOT harder than cramming a ton of modulating riffs into a longer song. i also learned, through touring, that it suited my band better to play a variety (still with in the same genre) of songs in a higher quantity than to play a handful of longer songs. i have watched many a venue clear out as a band has gotten "boring" to the crowd - i remember it from when i was younger, and i see it now when younger guys play shows with us.

[horns666]

I covered this topic to death moons ago.

I poop "METAL" songs...now my kid does.

'sup..fellas..??!!!