Jacksons as Fender copies

[guitarnut1980]

Could be right, untill Grover introduced the model that became the actual soloist we all know and love today. Can't say i have heard it before, but like I said before i'm still learning, I know Charvels have been refered to as the original hot rod Guitar. Guess I just thought they were (two seperate entities)carry on.

[Musician78]

I got the second one which Kirk gave away to a local graphic arts guy in 93 and I scored it from him a few years ago.

I can post pics later I just have to dig it out. I am also know as EXPcustom on the ESP boards I am sure that senior mambers can also verify I have the real deal.

That's pretty damn cool. Even though I don't like Metallica anymore, KH is a main reason why I got into guitar many years ago.

[goodwood]

The Soloist and Dinky are both strat styles...HARDLY two 'new' body styles...what...the Tele and the Flying V or Explorer weren't considered but the variations on the Strat style are NEW? Come on!! That's typical Grover on the crackpipe commentary!!

The original Pacers were more Strat copies because the bodies were rounded on the edges...they later (about 1987) stepped in to the Dinky copy body with the sharper edges.

The stuff about the compound radius fingerboard now THAT is a true innovation. Most, if not all speed players love the feel of those necks. They are great. I like them and I don't really play fast but I definitely know comfort.

[Jacksonite]

actually the tele came first IIRC...

The Fender Telecaster was developed by Leo Fender in Fullerton, California in the 1940s. Hell the LesPaul wasnt even around till 52 i think.

I dont think the soloist and the Dinky bodies are ripoffs of the Strat, but more an evolution of the strat style.

[John C]

The Soloist body is the same size as the Dinky, and both are 7/8" the size of a standard Strat body. Dinky = bolt-on. Soloist = neck-thru.

You are absolutely correct. I guess I wasn't clear in my original post as that was the point I was attempting to make: what I meant was the 7/8 size body first appeard on the neck-through Soloist and by the mid-to-late 80s was used as the "Dinky" on bolt-ons as Jackson moved further away from the "classic Fender Strat" body size (which has in turn been "reborn" by modern FMIC-J/C on the current Charvels).

At one point wasn't the Dinky the primary bolt-on strat-style body for Jackson (say late 1980s-early 1990s)?

[John C]

actually the tele came first IIRC...

The Fender Telecaster was developed by Leo Fender in Fullerton, California in the 1940s. Hell the LesPaul wasnt even around till 52 i think.

I dont think the soloist and the Dinky bodies are ripoffs of the Strat, but more an evolution of the strat style.

Paul Bibsby's guitar was developed in the late 1940s, around the same time that Fender was working on his first prototypes and Les Paul had been using his "log" guitar (Epiphone neck attached to a block of wood with home-made pickups and "fake body") for a few years.

Fender's first production of the "Broadcaster" was in late 1950/early 1951 (renamed "Telecaster" in 1952). The first Les Pauls hit in 1952, and Fender's Stratocaster in 1954. While other shapes have been successful, these are still the dominant solid body shapes today that people use as the starting point for evolving the solid-body guitar.

[Jacksonite]

I had read in the mid 40s..

[Aaronharmon]

3. Sorry i misspelled Randy Rhoads name wrong, fast typing i guess(oopsie slap on the wrist)

You misspelled his name wrong? So you were trying to spell it wrong and accidently spelled it correctly?

Nah, I'm just standing on your nuts!

Nice post.

Interesting read.

[phill_up]

The Soloist body is the same size as the Dinky, and both are 7/8" the size of a standard Strat body. Dinky = bolt-on. Soloist = neck-thru.

I thought the dinky was the only jackson that was 7/8ths size hence the name dinky. I have a 2002 charvel traditional that supposedly has the dinky body but with a charvel neck. I know the body is smaller than my soloist. I also had the Model A I think ...(it was the one that came out with the livewires), it and the soloist had the same sized body

[guitarnut1980]

Maybe some one can help me out here, and maybe validate some of the iformation I am about to post. Here is what I know

1. In the late 70's the quality of the big two (Gibson and Fender), was starting to faulter.

2. This gave rise to the, numorous custom builders including, Charvel, BC Rich, Hamer and so on.

3. Alot of the early Charvel guitars (pre-pro) used many out sourced parts, namely boogie body.

4. One of the best known of these is the guitar that became the black and white strat, and ultimately the frankenstrat used by Edward Van Halen.

5. Upon Eddies move to Kramer guitars, at the height of their popularity they literally put everyone under except PRS which was at the time just gaining momentum.

6. This in turn caused the sale of Charvel/Jackson to Akai Musical Instrument Co., all Charvels moved to production in Japan, and the facility was moved from San Dimas to Ontario

7. With the Exit of Kramer guitars, this gave way to the Japanese companies that dominated most of the extreme guitar market, Ibanez and Esp, and they gaind alot of credibility due to all the popular guitarists they signed ala. Satriani, Vai ect. ect.

8. In the mid-late 90's Charvel was almost completely phased out along with Charvette <-- Thank God!

9. The at the time pro series was redone( between 97, 98) due to cutting into the american Jackson profit.

10. Don't know the trouble AMIC was in but eventually sale was made to FMIC, and prices went way up, but quality didn't, bet none of us saw that coming! I think up until the sale the SL1 still listed at 1899 msrp.

I most likely missed spots in between.

[charvel750]

I'm not so sure in your first point if Fender/Gibson were faltering. I think players wanted "hot rods" and things you couldn't get: like heavy duty trems and different pickup layouts, necks, etc. So that's where the need came from. In your 5th point, I'm not sure that Kramer put everyone out, even PRS wasn't well known until the mid 80's. But Jackson surely dominated the market in the early 80's even with Kramer around.

[John C]

Since I was around back then (I'm getting old!) I can address some of your points:

1. In the late 70's the quality of the big two (Gibson and Fender), was starting to faulter.

1. Gibson and Fender were still kings in terms of sales, but it was their quality that began slipping during the decade of the 1970s. CBS owned Fender, and they were pushing so much product that corners were being cut in terms of sloppy neck pockets (combined with the switch to a 3-bolt neck that was a recipe for disaster), less body contouring, cheaper parts (like cast pot-metal trem plates and blocks). Gibson also had their own issues - "pancake" bodies with mutiple laminates of (heavy) mahogany and maple, switch to 3-piece maple necks from 1-piece mahogany, and Norlin generally telling them to push product. Of course, this was an "evolutionary" process; it didn't happen overnight. I'm not saying there weren't good Fenders and Gibsons out there, but you had to go through more to find good ones.

2. This gave rise to the, numorous custom builders including, Charvel, BC Rich, Hamer and so on.

2. This is definitely correct - in the 1970s small builders like BC Rich were going in a completely different direction (neck-through) from the traditional Fender (bolt-on) and Gibson (set neck). Of course, Gibson's original Firebirds were neck through; to me BC Rich just took that concept into new places with their designs. Hamer and Dean were taking on Gibson in the world of set neck guitars. However, outside of Music Man there weren't any real bolt-on challengers in the 1970s, but there were parts suppliers - Schecter, Mighty Mite, Boogie Bodies (now Warmoth), and Charvel were making various parts for people to either upgrade their Fender or perhaps do it themselves. I believe Schecter was actually first at selling assembled guitars - at least they were ramping up and selling them at the time when Wayne Charvel was selling out to Grover Jackson. Also, Tom Anderson was doing both design work for Schecter and supervising the assembly of their completed guitars.

Most of the real explosion of the bolt-on custom builders happened in the 1980s; after Van Halen I hit everyone wanted to move to these "hot rod" guitars; Grover Jackson was in position to make it happen as Charvel (later Charvel/Jackson after the Rhoads came out) moved from parts to complete guitars.

3. Alot of the early Charvel guitars (pre-pro) used many out sourced parts, namely boogie body.

3. That has been fairly well documented. According to Grover's version of the story they never really built necks until after he purchased the company in 1978; they evidently had only made a few runs of bodies in the Wayne era. Grover's story was that some of the routers the owners had them purchase had never even been turned on until after he took over. Of course, Wayne remembers it differently but at least he admits they never ramped up to production and only made a handful of guitars under his ownership. Since Charvel was a repair shop originally; they got parts from all over. Boogie Bodies was where they ordered the custom spec neck for EVH when he was putting together the original Frankenstrat.

4. One of the best known of these is the guitar that became the black and white strat, and ultimately the frankenstrat used by Edward Van Halen.

4. Yep, the frankenstrat probably got what I call the "hot rod" part of the California Custom builders going - stripped down, unique finishes, "built for speed". Schecter and their followers went in the other direction - a bit more traditional with primo woods.

5. Upon Eddies move to Kramer guitars, at the height of their popularity they literally put everyone under except PRS which was at the time just gaining momentum.

5. Not exactly. You're right that Kramer was on top of the world for a while, but they had plenty of company. Charvel/Jackson had a fairly decent production even before leaving San Dimas. Hamer was doing pretty well up in Chicago, but the "Kramer effect" did have them begin moving from set neck Gibson-influenced guitars to bolt-on hot rod guitars. Schecter tried using imported parts to keep up, but they were overrun and did go out of business for about a year as well. Leo Fender bailed on Music Man in 1980 to start G&L Guitars. This eventually lead to Music Man going under. Ernie Ball bought Music Man out of bankruptcy in 1984; by 1986 they were back in production business. PRS moved from being a custom shop to full production in 1985; however, they didnt' really get big until after Kramer was long gone. Also, in 1985 Fender was back private under FMIC, and in 1986 Henry J. bought Gibson from Norlin.

Kramer got big by outsourcing parts, primarily from ESP. It's my understanding that by the end of the company they really were only assembling guitars from finished parts here in the USA; they weren't even painting bodies here any more.

6. This in turn caused the sale of Charvel/Jackson to Akai Musical Instrument Co., all Charvels moved to production in Japan, and the facility was moved from San Dimas to Ontario

6. Okay, I hope a real Charvel/Jackson historian can help me out here, but I’m not sure of that timeline. I know that Grover Jackson needed capital to expand the company to keep up with Kramer, and he did ink a deal to get that financial input circa late 1985/early 1986. At that point the company became known as Jackson/Charvel, and the Charvel brand was used for an imported lineup made in Japan, and the USA bolt-ons now carried the Jackson name instead of the Charvel name. The influx of capital allowed Jackson/Charvel to build their Ontario factory and greatly expand production. However, for some reason I was thinking the original financing came from IMC, the company that imported Hondo II guitars here in the USA. For a while Grover Jackson not only ran the company but retained a financial share of it. However, at some point in the early 1990s Grover Jackson was bought out and he left the company. Akai was an owner of Jackson/Charvel; however, I’m not sure that they were the first owner of the company.

7. With the Exit of Kramer guitars, this gave way to the Japanese companies that dominated most of the extreme guitar market, Ibanez and Esp, and they gaind alot of credibility due to all the popular guitarists they signed ala. Satriani, Vai ect. ect.

7. I wouldn’t say that this was caused by the exit of Kramer. Ibanez and ESP were already pretty well established by the time that Kramer folded in 1989. I would say that Kramer, Jackson/Charvel, Ibanez and ESP were all going after the same market. Jackson/Charvel was first in, but Kramer trumped them with the EVH endorsement and sheer volume. Ibanez and ESP moved into the same market, as did Hamer and BC Rich. ESP had signed up George Lynch back in the mid-1980s, and even though the Ibanez JEM didn't come out until 1987 they were working with Via in 1986. Satriani was on-board by 1987 although he didn’t have a signature until 1989 or so.

8. In the mid-late 90's Charvel was almost completely phased out along with Charvette <-- Thank God!

8. That is true; as the demand for the “shred”, “extreme”, or “hot rod” guitar faded in the 1990s it seems like the company began to phase out the Charvel name. I think the “Jackson is USA/Charvel is import” line was blurred with the first of the Pro Series in the early 1990s. After that, it became easier to just put everything under the Jackson name. I recall the Charvettes as being very low-budget made in Korea line, so as Korean production improved it made sense to "retire" a name attached to bad memories..

9. The at the time pro series was redone( between 97, 98) due to cutting into the american Jackson profit.

9. I don’t know if that was the real reason; it could just have been that by that time the market for the shred-type guitar was really down. If you look at Ibanez and ESP at the same time, they were also cutting down their Japanese production and moving more to Korea. Across all of these there were more lower-cost guitars and fewer upper-line models. It was likely just as much market reaction to sales as “cutting into USA profits” – if someone wanted a USA Custom Shop, they would still pay the $$$$ to get one.

10. Don't know the trouble AMIC was in but eventually sale was made to FMIC, and prices went way up, but quality didn't, bet none of us saw that coming! I think up until the sale the SL1 still listed at 1899 msrp.

10. And here is where we are as of today. It’s funny how things come full circle, as FMIC is now viewed as the “big, bad corporate entity messing with the companies they purchase” when 24 years ago they were the saviors rescuing Fender from CBS – the “big, bad corporate entity that was messing with the companies they had purchased”. In all seriousness it is a real shame about the reported quality, but the price increase had to be expected based on pricing from Fender’s own Custom Shop and other entities. Also, that could be why AMIC was willing to sell - they weren't making enough money without really raising prices.