A cabs and heads thread?

[Endrik]

oh, there's plenty of great recordings which have solos without rhythm guitar underneath them and some are played in in one track...
that being said multitrack recording is not bad at all... old VH could be played exactly the same way live as on the records (that was their productional approach... to sound like a live band) even though Ed played rhythm and leads separately when he recorded.

the problem wasn't so much about that a player couldn't play all the song parts in into a one track but mostly people have different sound (amp settings mostly) for rhythm and lead guitar part

[toejam]

A lot of Pantera stuff didn't have rhythm guitar under the solos on album either. And live, of course, they didn't have another guitar player. Rex was a great bass player and held down the rhythm just fine, and he had more mid range in his sound to cut through.

[horns666]

One of my favorite VH studio moments is in "Hear about it later"..orginally there was a rythm track under Ed's solo. Proof that sometimes less is more!!

[thetroy]

A lot of Pantera stuff didn't have rhythm guitar under the solos on album either. And live, of course, they didn't have another guitar player. Rex was a great bass player and held down the rhythm just fine, and he had more mid range in his sound to cut through.

Endrik is right about a lot of jazz artists and some OLD rock bands, but show me a single major hard rock or metal album recorded in the past say 20-25 years that has only one guitar track and I will eat my hat.

Everyone has at least 2 tracks of just rhythm guitar, often even more. The same is usually true for vocals. Hell how many vocal tracks does Def Leppard have going on, 50+?

[Frigo89]

White Lion's Big Game album has one specific song i can't remember the name of, though it may be "let's get crazy" that doesn't have a rhythym track under the guitar solo, and it does just fine, I actually prefer that sound, and that's how I record all my shit, one guitar track, bass and drums

[markD]

By that logic pretty much every band in the world hasn't practiced enough.

You really just record one guitar track and one vocal track? I would be amazed if that's the case.

while i DO overdub extra guitars (two for rythym one for lead), ALL the tracks are played live in one pass. NO punching in, no cutting and pasting, etc. if i (or anyone else in the band) screw up, the recording starts over.

as far as vocals, yes, one track for the lead vocal - recorded live in one pass - no punching, no overdubs, etc. IF there are harmonies, which we ONLY record if we can sing them live, they are done in one pass, recorded live.

our philosophy is:

if we can't do it live then we shouldn't record it. that doesn't mean only ONE guitar track, but RARELY are there extra bits and pieces that one guitar can't pull off on stage. meaning, i just double what i always play. nothing fancy.

our vocal philosophy is:

if the singer flats in the sme spot NO MATTER what, then why make it tune there? when someone hears the CD and it sounds great, then comes sees us live and she flats on ONE spot, then they think we suck. if it is there from the first time they hear the song, then they expect it to be there.

we aren't a techincal death metal band. we are a hard rock band. we are also an AMAZINGLY tight and CONSISTENT band. we rarely play bad. when we record, we play our takes like we are playing live. the rythym section keeps their tracks, i overdub and extra guitar and then the solo (which is also played in one take - if i screw up i start over again. that's why ALL my leads are worked out. i don't improvise leads. i know every note i am going to play before i record it.)

i have the rack version of antares auto tune. i use it when other bands i record are lazy and won't redo their tracks until they get it right. i know HOW to cut, paste and cheat, but i just don't do it with MY band. if others want it, fine. it's their money, their band and their product.

anyway, i understand what you are getting at. we just choose to use modern technology to record old-school style.

[thetroy]

That's cool I figured something like that was the case. Nothing at all wrong with that or any other approach, I just found it hard to believe that you recorded EXACTLY the same as playing live - because you don't. Closer than most, but still not exactly the same.

I think for the most part it's just jazz groups that do that these days. Maybe some other lesser-known vintage-style bands, but certainly nothing popular.

Anyway re: the topic

I find my closed-back 2x12 with Eminence Texas Heats sounds great with most anything but it's very directional. One day I will add another open-back cab to get a better spread.

[markD]

Mark, that's an interesting point. It's something the other guitarist in my band and I think about quite a bit - how our tones interact and stay seperate from each other. He's a mahogany-guitar sort of guy, where I favor swamp ash. I play with more gain, and EQ brighter. And there's that really important point - on its own, your tone might sound great ... but get it in the band context, and it might not work that well. Vice-versa, too.

This makes me think of all those two-guitar bands, where both are plugging their PRSs into Mesas and creating mud.

exactly. the PRS into a triple rec seems fairly standard these days. as does and amp with more gain than a human with technique and feel could EVER need.

i have found the more compressed and gained out the tone gets, the more it is "lost" in the mix. hahaha, when i record i play with the minimal amount of gain i can in order to pull of the song. the ending result is USUALLY a HUGE, MASSIVE, INCREDIBLY gorgeous tone on tape. i learned that technique from a producer here in tampa. he was using stock JMP marshalls to record these all the metal bands. the sounds were INSANE on the tape, but sounded like ass when solo'd. think a modern amp with the gain on 2-3.

we did a record with him in 1989. i went into the studio with my marshall JCM800. we ended up using a tweed fender deluxe cranked to 10 instead. it sounded better than the marshall. it actually had less gain than the JCM800!! go figure because that amp has weak gain already!!

we double tracked the tweed deluxe and it was crushing once the rest of the band was playing. ALL the heaviness came from the bass - the muscle, the weight - all i did was add the crunch on top.

a lot of times when you go see bands live that have layered 8-10 guitar tracks using the PRS into a recto combination, you are very disappointed by how shitty the live sound is. NO muscle. NO power. NO crush factor. it sounds like a wall of noise - especially if the guys CRANK the gain and scoop the mids - AND play through V30's. instant mosquito tone. it is sad.

with 2 guitar bands, it is best to EQ in a "zipper" effect. one guy uses more bass, the other a little less. the guy with less bass uses more mids, the other guy a little less. the guy with MORE bass uses a little more treble and reduces the presence, the guy with MORE mids uses a little less treble and increases the presence. that way when they play together OR separate, the tones are JUST different enough that they stand out, but work together to create a HUGE tone when playing together.

you and your guy are on to a good idea. by using the mahogany guitar and setting his amp accordingly to the idea i just presented, and you using the swamp ash and the idea above, the two of you should be able to make a menacing stage sound.

[markD]

That's cool I figured something like that was the case. Nothing at all wrong with that or any other approach, I just found it hard to believe that you recorded EXACTLY the same as playing live - because you don't. Closer than most, but still not exactly the same.

I think for the most part it's just jazz groups that do that these days. Maybe some other lesser-known vintage-style bands, but certainly nothing popular.

Anyway re: the topic

I find my closed-back 2x12 with Eminence Texas Heats sounds great with most anything but it's very directional. One day I will add another open-back cab to get a better spread.

yeah, hear you. when i said live, i meant the no punching or digital editing thing. it's cool.

and back to topic...

i used to HATE that directional effect of closed back cabs.

[thetroy]

My favorite setup that I wish I still had, sounded as good or better than anything else I've played and was more simple, was not a head and cab but a combo and cab.

Soldano Astroverb 1x12 open-back combo stacked on top of Mesa 3/4-closed-back 1x12 cab. That thing with a plain SD1 in front of it sounded fantastic and I could carry my entire guitar setup in one trip... gig bag on my back, combo and cab in my 2 hands.