Bugera amps

[Cygnus X1]

Exactly. If Pete builds exact copies of '59 Fender Bassmans, and Behringer does the same thing in a Chinese sweatshop, is Pete any less guilty than Behringer?

With one foot in the grave of this...I feel I can comment.
I build a 59 Tweed Deluxe clone. Hand wired, point to point.
No shortcuts, and using premium components.
Now, I can't sell this as a Fender Tweed Deluxe, nor can I get the 5 thousand that the originals command. But It's worth 1500 to 2500 just based on the work. The difference is likely that Pete has done the study, how to run the wires, the work of hand point to point, and all that is required to make a true hand built amp.
Copying a schematic, and throwing in the cheap components makes the difference. That is what I would call a "ripoff".

[slash]

Guess I stand corrected, I thought the V3 was more expensive.

Those must be good, absolutely none of them on eBay!

To support what hippietim said... this V3 1/2 stack sold for $835
http://cgi.ebay.com/CARVIN-V3-GUITAR...QQcmdZViewItem

[slayer]

I agree with you guys to buy a very good used 5150-5150+-XXX or JXX used for some very good prices, especially if your patient. I have seen clean 5150`s for $500 more than once.

Jack

[Cygnus X1]

I still "blame" hippietim for sending me down this path.
I'm almost done with my shredder amp.

Back on point, and Rupe has it covered well....
Pasting a circuit onto a board is a completely different world.
I have been blessed to have been the owner of hand wired amps, from the sixties, and several donors. I've also seen what makes good and bad SS builds.
Anyone can copy the turret board into a 2 dollar circuit build.
It makes a huge difference in sound, and reliability.

Not saying there's no such thing as a good PCB build...there are plenty. But I can
be fairly sure that the price point of the Bugera doesn't suggest a quality build.

[CharvelRocker]

With one foot in the grave of this...I feel I can comment.
I build a 59 Tweed Deluxe clone. Hand wired, point to point.
No shortcuts, and using premium components.
Now, I can't sell this as a Fender Tweed Deluxe, nor can I get the 5 thousand that the originals command. But It's worth 1500 to 2500 just based on the work. The difference is likely that Pete has done the study, how to run the wires, the work of hand point to point, and all that is required to make a true hand built amp.
Copying a schematic, and throwing in the cheap components makes the difference. That is what I would call a "ripoff".

BINGO! You nailed it for me.

[SEEGERMANY]

IWhen I had my store, almost every Crate Blue Voodoo that I sold came back with an issue. That amp seemed like a steal...great tone and not too expensive. My repair guy said it was one of the worst amps that he had ever seen (along with the Carvin Legacy) from a construction and component standpoint.

A good friend of mine has a music store here in Bossier City. He had two Blue "DooDoo" amps and I remember him saying that he's made three bad decisions in his life.

1) getting married
2) not using a condom
3) stocking Crate bullshit

[Infernal Death]

With one foot in the grave of this...I feel I can comment.
I build a 59 Tweed Deluxe clone. Hand wired, point to point.
No shortcuts, and using premium components.
Now, I can't sell this as a Fender Tweed Deluxe, nor can I get the 5 thousand that the originals command. But It's worth 1500 to 2500 just based on the work. The difference is likely that Pete has done the study, how to run the wires, the work of hand point to point, and all that is required to make a true hand built amp.
Copying a schematic, and throwing in the cheap components makes the difference. That is what I would call a "ripoff".

Well of course you are right. Personally though i think the main difference is the scale on which this takes place. If Pete are any other small builder builds 4-5 amps it doesn't hurt the original company much. Also since those small builders often using premium parts and doing the circuit ptp handwired, they often command a higher price and make them less competitive to the original (ok that doesn't work with your Fender Tweed example because of the very high price of the original).
Now when Behringer clones a circuit they use the cheapest parts and can sell the product for much less than the original. Also Behringer produces in the thousands so the original company most likely will feel the impact on their sales. That's where the difference is to me.

It's the same in the guitar world. I feel that's the reason why small builders like Ran, Amfisound and Shamray get away with copying guitar shapes and the big companies like ESP have to differ the shapes to avoid getting sued.

Flo

[lerxstcat]

Yup and when they start copying Jackson soloists like they do the Les Pauls and Ibanez guitars im sure youll be upset right???

Also you can get a great used amp for the same as a new Behringer/Bugera rip off.


Behringers R&D is simple. They order a good product from Musiciansfriend such as a Line 6 SPider or POD and then take it to a Chinese dude and say copy this for me but use cheaper parts and labor. Since the Mackie lawsuit they have changed the colors though. I saw a mint condition used 5150 for $400 once. You can get great gear if youre patient and look around. Peavey is made in Mississippi. Id rather keep them working rather than keep the chinese working.

You might have seen a mint used 5150 for $400 "once" but I bet that was years ago. And don't forget that what Bugera is doing to the 5150 now is what Peavey did to Soldano to build the 5150. Also, Peavey is making amps in China now too, their SS amps and the Valveking tube amps are China-made now. Line 6 is having their SpiderValve heads made in China too and attaching the Bogner name to them. As has been said, Chinese components are in many US-made amps now too.

I'm not personally planning to get one of these amps, but I don't think it's fair to question someone's patriotism because they want to buy a Chinese amp. I'd rather people buy amps from them than have to fight a thermonuclear world war with them if you get down to it.

[zeegler]

You might have seen a mint used 5150 for $400 "once" but I bet that was years ago. And don't forget that what Bugera is doing to the 5150 now is what Peavey did to Soldano to build the 5150. Also, Peavey is making amps in China now too, their SS amps and the Valveking tube amps are China-made now. Line 6 is having their SpiderValve heads made in China too and attaching the Bogner name to them. As has been said, Chinese components are in many US-made amps now too.

I'm not personally planning to get one of these amps, but I don't think it's fair to question someone's patriotism because they want to buy a Chinese amp. I'd rather people buy amps from them than have to fight a thermonuclear world war with them if you get down to it.

Well said Lerx.

You can't blame people for buying Chinese made stuff when it is so ridiculously cheap. A lot of people can't afford to buy American made products. It's that simple. As for the prices of used 5150s, they seem to be in the $600-800 range right now, so even used, they are substantially more than a Bugera.

As for myself, I own a B52 AT-100, that is also made in China. It's a fantastic sounding amp, but yeah, it's got cheapo components. I won't buy another one. My next amp will probably be a Marshall.

[hippietim]

The bottom line is regardless of the quality this economic trend is simply not sustainable. Eventually, Americans will realize that shopping at Walmart and getting piece of shit DVD players for $40 is not really that good of a deal.

[Racerx2k]

I wish your notion was so, but I remain doubtful of that. Money talks, and these days, it seems like most everything is disposable. I seem to see less people fix what they have, and just buy new. And, so long as they do THAT, their gonna figure, why not save some money.
I'll be the first to admit, I own some low-end guitars. Five, to be exact. and each one probably cost me, on average, $300-400. So why own 5 $300 guitars, when I could have 1 $1500? Simple. Two reasons: 1 - Each guitar serves a different purpose and sound, and 2 - They serve my purpose just as much as the $1500 guitar would and I have backups, to boot.

[zeegler]

Can you even get an american made DVD player?

It won't always be China. It's slowly shifting already. China is becoming more and more westernized, just like Japan did. As wokers unions take hold, working conditions improve, wages go up, product quality improves, and eventually China will begin to outsource manufacturing to other, less developed countries where the people will work for peanuts. Sound familiar? That's the way of greedy capitalist societies. I don't blame people for wanting to buy cheap products. I blame the corporations responsible for outsourcing, and the govt. for allowing the stuff to be imported without sufficient tariffs and import duties. They prey on the fact that people like to have nice stuff. Everyone wants the latest gadgets, whether it's the latest phone, high definition DVD players, whatever it is, we gotta have this junk.

[hippietim]

Blaming the corporations is a handy way to absolve yourself of any responsibility. There are thre instruments of change in this situation: the people, corporations, and the government.

The people are ultimately the least motivated to change their buying habits. That is, until the economy plunges and they can't get a job because the one they had moved to China and the ones available are being filled by criminals from south of the border.

Corporations should be more interested in producing things here. That is, if their middle and senior management weren't such a bunch of morons just trying to get ahead. It doesn't take a particularly bright person to figure out that their current pattern is not sustainable. So they're intentionally ignoring the obvious for short term gains. Of course, this just puts the riches in *very* few people's pockets (that whole less than 1% of the population thing).

Government should be the most interested in this. Afterall, their purpose for existing is the welfare of the people. Unfortunately our politicians are totally owned by corporate America. These fuckers should have to wear colorful jump suits with patches for all of their sponsors - heck, it'd be just like god damn NASCAR - what could be more American than that?

[yard dawg]

I saw the 5150 a few months ago. I bought a guitar from the guy and someone else got the amp. We all met up in the same place. It was a craigslist deal. The amp was in MINT cond. The deals are there but you have to find them. I doubt very seriously that the Saldano amp is the same circuit as the 5150. The difference in taking an existing product and tweaking the circuit and improving it and taking an existing circuit and DUPLICATING it in a chinese factory is that the 1st is ok and the 2nd should be illegal and probably is. Mackie had to sue Behringer to get them to stop stealing there stuff. Plagurism is illegal. Duplicating cds and dvds for sale is illegal. Copying someone elses amp design and selling it should be.

According to most of y'alls philosophy I should be allowed to copy a Michael Chrichton book word for word,change the name of it, have it printed up in a chinese print shop and sell it as my own original work. Behringer has been known to do this with musical gear.

If you want to buy a Bugera amp then go for it. Thats your right as a free citizen but remember that you can get USA made AMPS for around the same price but you'll have to shop around. The typical instant gratification american way of doing things will have to be set aside to find the deal on USA stuff.

Also there are no choices for a USA made DVD player versus a USA made amp. Ross Perot once said that if there are no american people working then who will buy that crap from china or mexico.

[hippietim]

you'll probably have plenty of time to shop for an American amp while your Bugera amp is in the shop