vht, bv, jcm 800/900

[megashredder]

Okay, last week I tried out a marshall jcm900, and I wasn't impressed at all. I heard a lot of good things about the 900 but it didn't seem to have much low end and the distortion was kind of "crackly." Maybe it was just the tubes in the amp....

I have tried a blue voodoo and I liked that but I don't remember it haveing insane crunch or anything, the 900 and the bv had great harmonics but they didn't sound like metal amps.

- Now what I was wondering was what kind of amp should I get if i'm mostly going to play metal???

I heard a lot of things about the vht pitbull, 800, and the bv300. - Do I have to change the factory tubes in any of these amps to get them to sound good even if its brand new??????

thanks for help'n [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[jgcable]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

Peavey XXX

[eaeolian]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

The VHT is hard to argue with - the 100/CL I played just absolutely crushed. I'll be the first to raise the flag of Mesa in this here thread, though - a good used Dual is hard to beat, IMO, especially the three-channel version. (I use a 3ch Triple.) Even the SingleRec sounds good, to me. They usually require some time spent playing with the controls, though, before you figure out how to get your tone out of them.

The Crates don't floor me, personally, and the 900 series has NEVER done a thing for me. Overpriced muddy mush, IMO.

Try a 5150. I still like them a lot better than the XXX, except for clean stuff, and they're cheap.

New tubes will usually help in a used amp, but you shouldn't have to replace them when they're new.

Mike

[StuTDavis]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

What is your current "metal" setup, so we know where you are coming from?

What kind of "metal" or bands are you trying to get the sound of?

I have some thoughts you might want to think about or at least keep in mind when you're trying out amps looking for "metal"...

The amps you tried are "meant for metal". However, so are a lot of other amps you might try and think the same thing you did about the 900 and BV. Some amps may sound more like metal than others straight into a cab. But, I think the majority of people would agree that the majority of amps (tube amps especially) need to be cranked way up to get to what they consider "metal" territory. I don't know if you are looking for an amp for home play, or an amp to play in a band live situation, but that can make a big difference for tube amps, in terms of being able to "crank" them high enough to get into "metal" territory.

Again, depending on your playing situation and tastes, some amps may sound more "metal" right out of the box straight into a cab than others. Some amps are made to get a more thrashy, heavy sound at lower volumes, and some really require high volumes to get into that sound territory. Solid state distortion amps, for instance, can more easily be designed to sound "metal" at lower volumes, but a lot of people are turned off by solid state...it all just depends.

Personally, I'm a home player only (no band, no playing out at all), and I've had heads that were supposed to be "metal", including the BV120 and a VHT head. At the volumes I am restricted to, at least, neither of these amps got the "metal" I wanted. I ran them both together, gains maxed, with a BBE in their loops, both pushed in the front with a distortion pedal with its gain maxed as well, to get the kind of "metal" sound I wanted.

There is the chance that, in your playing situation, with your tastes, and possibly depending on your budget, you may not find ANY amp heads that sound "metal" enough by themselves to you. I can't get my sound from any head I've ever heard by itself, for instance. I ended up going into rack gear, and I have everything I ever wanted in my sound. You might find that some of the amps that aren't "metal" enough for you might sound better with a BBE or an EQ unit, or an overdrive or distortion in the front. I eventually realized that, for my tastes, amps/preamps are nothing more than basic tone generators. I listen to them for their basic sound, expecting and knowing I will have to throw a lot of other gear at them to get the sound to where I want it...the amp becomes just one small part of the acutal mix.

Just some stuff to think about and maybe keep in mind when you're trying stuff out. Because, if those amps weren't "metal" for you, you might not find amps that fit the bill by themselves, for what you want and expect for your sound.

Stu

[megashredder]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

Yes that is exactually what I was thinking

I am playing in a band and through either two genz benz or a full stack. So it needs to be loud.

I have heard from many people that for most tube amps, that they have to be turned up a considerable amount before they sound good.

I wanted a distortion like zakk wylde's jcm800, which has 6550's in it.

Now is the reason he has such a big metal sound all because of the 6550's in it? Or is the 800 a big difference than the 900??

I want to be able to have a pretty decent metal sound out of the amp so I don't have to use distortion pedals, but if I need to, I will use them.

I know the triple recto's are good but I heard they are a bit muddy from people, like they aren't good for single notes and should be used for bands more like godsmack....

Thanks for the help again

[StuTDavis]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

That's good information. I'm not familiar with Genz Benz gear, myself. Do you currently have solid state amps, and you're looking to move to tube gear? And what exactly does your current gear have that you like vs. what more you want from your sound?

Since you are already kinda familiar with what you want, need and expect from amps, I'd guess that it's possible that (1)you didn't get to turn the 900 and BV up loud enough to get to their "metal territory", or (2) those amps might just not cut it for what you want.

If you don't think those amps cut it, you might want to start looking at some other amps like the 5150, or some of what I'd refer to as "new generation" amps. The latest in tube amps are designed more around getting great high-gain sound at any volume. Well...high-gain sound, anyway...you be the judge of whether you think it's great or not hehehe. However, some of these amps are pretty pricey to downright ridiculously priced. I'm talking like the H&K TriAmp, Bogner Uberschall, the Diezel amps, some of the other botique amps etc. There are some cheaper alternatives, like the newer Peavey amps, for instance, that I thought sounded very good. Another alternative might be some of the Randall amps. I know a lot of the other guys are more familiar with them than I am, and can give you more names to look at.

But, in the end, you might find that you'd do better for yourself to get one of those other amps and add pedals and/or a little rack to bring them up to where you want them. Before you go trying out anything more expensive, I'd say it might be smart to try those amps with a BBE and/or EQ in the loop and maybe an EQ up front.

I'm just trying to give general info...being a home player I'm not always too relevant for band-sound info, just try to throw out some ideas that might help. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Good luck,

Stu

[ColdVayne]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

I play in a metal to death metal sounding band , and i use to use a VHT UL , but then sold it to get the almighty high gain amp the diezel herbert. Now i went back and rebought my VHT from the guy i sold it to and am planning on getting it modded alittle just to get alittle more gain right from the amp. I agree 100% if your going to fork the money over your going to want an amp without pedals and crap. My VHT was ultra high gain and got incredible metal tones and beyond with the EQ set just right. I am a gain and distortion junky and that thing fitted me perfectly but then i played a diezel herbert and was floored. It was the most heaviest more brutal amp i have ever played and i have played almost any amp out there. If i were you i would get a 5150 then get it modded if you dont have big bucks. If you have big bucks then buy a VHT UL or Classic.

[ July 10, 2003, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: ColdVayne ]

[piranhaguy2002a]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

There's always the ENGL Fireball I'm selling too. Brutal distortion, insane gain, great tone.
[email protected]

[megashredder]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

alright, I have heard of those other amps before, I spose I should try those out too.

I also was thinking about getting a soldano because I heard those are good soloing amps, but I don't know much about them.

-So do you know much about the jcm800 or how good it is if I was to switch the tubes to 6550's????

-What is the best kind of ampeg amps for metal????

[StuTDavis]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

I am not completely familiar with the 800, other guys can tell you more specifics.

But, it's my understanding, and assumption, that it was not an "ultra high gain amp" on its own. From what I've always heard, it was an amp that metal players [in the 80s] would get for its "basic tone", then add distortion pedals, EQs etc to get the sound they wanted out of it. Metal guys of the day really wanted a lot more than what the amps were designed to give them, so they (like others before them) found ways to spruce the sound up to where they wanted it. The 800 was designed before the 900 and BV you tried, right? Metal eventually became more and more "heavy" as time went on. So, why would you think that the 800 was have a more "metal" sound than those? Think logically, not just about what you've heard other people use. Now, if you want to take an 800 and do what the 80s guys did with it, and probably have it and some pedals and a rack unit, you can probably get a great sound out of it.

But, a lot of players these days want "just a head"...to have the simplicity of one piece of amp gear, without having to deal with other stuff...

That's the kind of thing I'm saying has somewhat changed over the years. Over time, amp designers eventually found better ways to break some of the gain structure barriers of traditional tube amps, I guess you could say. Some of the newest amps--even at lower volumes--sound like older amps sounded WITH a distortion/overdrive pedal pushing the front and much more powerful EQ and solid sound overall. Amps like the Bogner Uberschall, the newer Peavey XXX/XXL, H&K TriAmp, and the Diezel amps are way beyond what the older amps could do in terms of gain sound saturation and built-in "metal". And, in general, you can get a much better heavy sort of sound at lower volumes than I think players could get years ago, as well as better metal cranked sounds on their own.

Stu

[ July 13, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: StuTDavis ]

[megashredder]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

Yes, I understand what you are saying now. But for some reason zakk wydle only buys 80's 800s, then switches the tubes and uses his boss superoverdrive. So he probably just likes the tone from those amps like you said, it isn't the distortion so much, otherwise he would use something new.

I have tried the XXL and the jcm2000, I liked other amps that I have tried better than those to my surprise.

From what it sounds I have to try out some fireball, bogner, H&K, diezel, and VHT amps. I'm am sure I will like them better from what the specs say about them.

By the way have you heard anything about the soldano amps???

Thanks again [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[StuTDavis]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

First off, my personal opinion and advice is to completely ignore whatever "so and so" artist says they use. Take all that crap, stick it in a used grocery bag, tie it up, and throw it in the trash. There are many reasons for why information like that can be completely invalid for anyone else.

I'm not too familiar with Soldano, but have a kinda funny story. This was back when I had my VHT head...I was looking for a 2nd head to mix with its sound, to try to get a good sound with my stereo 4x12. About that time, when Guitar Center was buying out Musician's Friend, they took tons of MF stuff way, way down in price at the GC stores. I walked in one day, looking for amps, and there was a Soldano head for $800! I can't remember what it was, but I thought the same thing--I'd heard Soldano was so awesome etc etc. Tried it out for a few minutes, it didn't have exactly what I wanted, but I thought maybe my gear at home would help it. On the way out, I realized I had missed a BV120 (at regular price), and stopped to try it out--instantly, sounded more thrashy to me than the Soldano at the volumes I was trying them out. Slapped them both on a credit card and took them home. The Soldano went BACK to the store, the Crate BV stayed. Could have probably sold the Soldano for a profit, but I've gotta say, that amp was the WEAKEST amp at the lower volumes I have to use that I've ever played. The BV was kicking its butt--still not as thrashy as I would like--but much better. It seems silly, an amp 1/3 of its price, did more for me, much better...but it did. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Stu

[slayer]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

I can`t even imagine someone ever saying the VHT Pittbull CL-100 doesn`t have enough gain, those things have extreme gain. I have a 1993 in a 2x12 model with 2-Celestion Lead 80`s and it blows my hair back. It has extreme pre-amp type gain, which means it screams at lower volume than Power Tube gain type amps such as the 800/900. I am not sure what then VHT Ultra Lead sounds like, but they use different tubes than the Classic`s EL34`s. Dude, go try a VHT Pittbull Classic 100 and tell me what you think before buying anything else, my guess is you will really like it, especially through a cabinet with open style speakers such as Celestion 75`s and 80`s, they really open up and roar [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] Jack.

[ColdVayne]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

let me just say that the if it has the name , VHT , Soldano , Diezel and Bogner , it is a incredible amp.

[Hotrodder]

Re: vht, bv, jcm 800/900

Just a thought going in another direction. You might not want a high gain amp at all.

hi-gain amps tend to get much of their sound from the pre-amp section, while older amps get it from the power tubes. A very diffrent sound (and better IMHO).