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View Full Version : Whats so bad about Kahlers?



RobRR
11-03-2005, 04:37 PM
Why dont alot of people like Kahlers? Besides the fact that they are kind of ugly, any other reasons? I like the fact that weather pulling up or down on the bar, it doesent change the height of the strings. Could a Kahler Flyer replace a Floyd recessed, or would you have to angle the neck?

lhrocker
11-03-2005, 05:22 PM
I love Kahlers, but I'm not an extreme dive bomber. I love the fact that a pullup or occasional dive won't note out cause I like my action really low. I think it looks really cool - not ugly at all!!!!!

RobRR
11-03-2005, 09:09 PM
Thats the problem Im having on my DKMG... when pulling up a good ways it will kill the note because the action is so damn low.

GWARGHOUL
11-03-2005, 10:25 PM
I personally love Kahlers.
I first loved them when I had a USA Peavey Vandenberg (awesome axe..I miss it and would love to buy it back.. I think ManyAxes bought it from me) It had a Kahler that was very much like a Floyd Rose, but I felt it was cooler, sounded better and worked better. It was easier on the hand if I remember right. I think it was a Steeler? I'm probably wrong.

My KV1 BGF has a Kahler APM 3310 (fixed bridge) with a brass baseplate.
It think combined with the locking LSR tuners, it stays in tune better than anything I have ever played. If it slips, if has nifty fine tuners that make life easy.

I think the tremolo versions are very nice as well..stayed in tune, smooth action.. easy on the hands and the strings don't change height.. and the best part is that you can palm mute to hell and back and it won't shift.

Some people think they rob some low end tone. I can't see how they would take the tone any more than a tunamatic or any fixed bridge that is not string thru. In fact, with the larger mass being directly mounted on the body, I think its quite substantial.

I swear by the 3310.

buzzsaww
11-03-2005, 11:45 PM
my kahler can beat your floyds ass! 3 o'clock at the flag pole wussy!

RobRR
11-03-2005, 11:49 PM
/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Chameleonfong
11-04-2005, 12:55 AM
nothing wrong with Kahlers, they are just ugly that's all. bwhahahahahahah /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif


FOng

Birdzeyeee
11-04-2005, 04:13 AM
1. Hard to get parts for.

2. All the most talented 80's guitar heros; ie: Lynch, EVH. DeMartini used non-recessed Floyd Roses.

3. The rollers are a pain in the ass (strings would hang up, etc.) and the trem arm was flimsy.

The steel ones are better than the brass ones. But they still are a very distant second to a correctly set up non-recessed Floyd Rose. If I can't have this Floyd setup, my next choices would be string thru or stop tail.

Its funny how in '85 Kahler switched to the heavier bar and springs to try and be more like Floyd Rose.

If you forced me to use a Kahler, this would be my setup preferences: stainless steel with soft springs, palm control arm, keep the system set up nice, keep the rollers oiled, etc. That would be the best setup for a Kahler. And I would only use it about half or less of the time I would use a Floyd.

Zerberus
11-04-2005, 05:49 AM
[ QUOTE ]
1. Hard to get parts for.

[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously?? Iīve never had pparts issues... the internet is a great thing .... and Now theyīre back in production, so parts shouldnīt be an issue for anyone much longer /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
2. All the most talented 80's guitar heros; ie: Lynch, EVH. DeMartini used non-recessed Floyd Roses.

[/ QUOTE ]
While true to an extent, Iīm not sure what about that makes Kahlerīs bad /images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif

[ QUOTE ]
3. The rollers are a pain in the ass (strings would hang up, etc.) and the trem arm was flimsy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on the early Arms being flimsy (Kahler changed the alloy later and they were significantly stronger), but the rollers is a maintenance issue, never had problems... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Its funny how in '85 Kahler switched to the heavier bar and springs to try and be more like Floyd Rose.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the heavier springs were originally intended for Bass Trems, and only after numerous players started switching them out did Kahler start offering a choice. The bar was simply an improvement...

Interestingly enough, the Original Floyd had no fine tuners, and version 2 still had no whale tail, and the collared arm also came later... but for some reason Floyd furthering/improving the trem design never gets mentioned in nearly the same negative context that Kahlers Bar problem gets mentioned...

Kahler or Floyd, Neither is IMO superior, but they are inherently different systems, understanding of one generally does you no good setting up the other... I think thatīs actually the main problem.... After all, nobody complains that a Wilkinson or V-trem feels different from a Floyd, becasue itīs a different design... Sooooo, what exactly about the Kahler Flat-Mount is so special that people canīt accept that it holds true here as well?? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

toejam
11-04-2005, 06:13 AM
[ QUOTE ]
my kahler can beat your floyds ass! 3 o'clock at the flag pole wussy!

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, it's on now!! Bring it, tough guy! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif And tell Travis to bring his Duncan Distortion so my DiMarzio Super Distortion can kick its ass, too! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

hippietim
11-04-2005, 08:16 AM
I like all whidlee bars. I have guitars with 6-screw v-trems, 2 post fulcrums, recessed and non-recessed Floyds, Kahlers, and a Bigsby. They are all cool. They can all be very musical. And they can all be kept in tune when setup and used properly. At the same time, I can get any of them to go out of tune through improper setup or usage beyond their design.

Wait, there is one trem I don't care much for. The Steinberger TransTrem. It was fine as a trem but once it was locked into a different tuning it was not usable - plus those notch thingees would wear out and the thing would slip off.

Zerberus
11-04-2005, 09:44 AM
That sums up my sentiments and situation perfectly :taost:

MBreinin
11-04-2005, 09:52 AM
Kahlers are very finely engineered trems, much more so than a Floyd. Therefore, they require more maintenance and upkeep and often go to shit. Thus, people will criticize them. I think they are nifty, but I also like Floyds.

Either way, I am no Vai with the bar...sometimes I don't even thread the bar in.

Mike

der_kopf
11-04-2005, 10:26 AM
Dave M. is also guilty in spreading the rumor "Kahler is a tone sucking biatch".
But people say that only said this cause he did earn on every sold y2kV but not on the old KV1.

I like the idea of Kahler alot. Meaning "fixed-bridge-feeling" and ability of changing sound by changing parts.
But I have no experiance in tonal stuff...Kahler vs. Floyd. Which sounds better???

Bengal65
11-04-2005, 11:02 AM
I don't like flush mount Kahlers at all. They just don't stay in tune. I've got OFR Floyd's, Peavey Lic Floyds, Fender Am Std. and vintage trems, and Bigsby's and they all stay in tune. I once had a Fender HM Strat with the Floyd like Kahler trem. That one stayed in tune.

Cuthbert
11-04-2005, 11:18 AM
In my experience a kahler with the right set up stays in tune very well...almost like a double locking original floyd rose.

On the other hand, a kahler has a more mellower tone due to the fact that it's made of brass,palm muting is confortable and there is no recessed space for the spring on the bask of the guitar.

I think a Kahler 2200 series is the best choice for archtop guitars,and also the estethic is cool, while I dont like the 2300 baseplate...

Shawn Lutz
11-04-2005, 12:19 PM
It's matter of preference really. I personally think they are an eyesore and devalue any instrument that they are on. They also leave a huge ass gaping hole in the body so its not like you can change for gahler to a floyd and have it look nice without filing the hole and re-topping it.

Parts can be had easily now. Check out Paul at bigheadguitars.com he deals Gahler replacement parts.

noodlesatf
11-04-2005, 12:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's matter of preference really. I personally think they are an eyesore and devalue any instrument that they are on. They also leave a huge ass gaping hole in the body so its not like you can change for gahler to a floyd and have it look nice without filing the hole and re-topping it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, I think the exact opposite way, because many of the same things can be said about a Floyd and the huge gaping hole it leaves behind. To me, a Kahler looks like an interesting piece of engineering, mounts simply, and doesn't fall off the guitar when you take all the stirngs off. On the other hand, a Floyd looks like an oversized, blinged out vintage trem, like someone stuck 20" chrome wheels on my guitar. With a Floyd Blows, you have TWO gaping holes to fill in, one in the back and one in the front. Don't even get me started on the fact that you can't change the string spacing, and need shims to change the saddle height. Ugg.

To each his own, I guess, but I'm tired of seeing Kahlers get a bad rap. Floyds made it big because Eddie used them. If Eddie used Kahlers, we'd all be talking about how hard it is to find parts for those crappy Floyds that devalue the old guitars.

RobRR
11-04-2005, 12:57 PM
Great discussion so far. Ive never gotten to play a Kahler, but If I can find one on eBay or where ever for cheap, Id like to pick one up and experiment with it.

Cuthbert
11-04-2005, 01:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Funny, I think the exact opposite way, because many of the same things can be said about a Floyd and the huge gaping hole it leaves behind. To me, a Kahler looks like an interesting piece of engineering, mounts simply, and doesn't fall off the guitar when you take all the stirngs off. On the other hand, a Floyd looks like an oversized, blinged out vintage trem, like someone stuck 20" chrome wheels on my guitar. With a Floyd Blows, you have TWO gaping holes to fill in, one in the back and one in the front. Don't even get me started on the fact that you can't change the string spacing, and need shims to change the saddle height. Ugg.

To each his own, I guess, but I'm tired of seeing Kahlers get a bad rap. Floyds made it big because Eddie used them. If Eddie used Kahlers, we'd all be talking about how hard it is to find parts for those crappy Floyds that devalue the old guitars.

[/ QUOTE ]

+1...by the way I think that on a vintage Les Paul Custom a Kahler 2200 improve its appearence, and Gibson was right to offer it as the standard tremolo choice for their guitars.

By the way, I played an '86 Charvel 6 with a 2300 and I consider it far superior that the model of '87 with the Jackson locking trem, as well as the crappy licensed Floyds.

Anyway, the fact that a Kahler 2300 or 2200 is less invasive than a Floyd is evident:try to route an hardtail Strat or any other guitar with fixed brige for a Floyd and for a Kahler top mounting trem, and after look how much wood you moved...

By the way, the behind the nut locking systems just requires 4 holes.

Shawn Lutz
11-04-2005, 01:18 PM
Floyd made it big because trem stays in tune consistently. A non-recessed Floyd route is the same size as a std trem route. I only play floyded guitars and dont care for tune-o-matics or string-thrus so the route doesn't bother me at all.

As far as value goes a Floyded San Dimas Charvel or Jackson will always be worth more than one wiht a Kahler.

As I said its just a matter of player preference just as it is with pointy vs. stratheads or duncan vs. darmizio's, what works for you or whatever you prefer is all that matters.

shreddermon
11-04-2005, 01:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Floyd made it big because trem stays in tune consistently.

[/ QUOTE ]

+1

I've never played a Kahler that stayed in tune as well as an Original Floyd. Never.

I'm sure someone will come along and tell me that I've never played a properly set-up and strung Kahler. "They just need the saddles at a proper height" or "you need to solder the ball ends", and so on. /images/graemlins/eyes.gif Well all that set-up voodoo is very similar to what folks go through with a vintage trem to keep those reasonably in tune, too. So - from a tuning stability standpoint - how was the Kahler a significant advancement? It wasn't. It was only a marginal improvement.

Not saying Kahlers are junk. They aren't. A very high quality unit, without a doubt. In fact, they have some cool features.

But, from a tuning stability standpoint, they are inferior to a Floyd. Everything else is. And, IMHO, that's the bottom line as to why the Floyd continues to be successful and the Kahler wasn't.

Cuthbert
11-04-2005, 01:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Floyd made it big because trem stays in tune consistently.

[/ QUOTE ]

+1


[/ QUOTE ]

Opinable statement: tuning stability is not given by the dimensions but by the locking system(s) and the friction at the pivots.

In my experience,it it true that a proper fitted Floyd is marginally more stable than a Kahler 2300, but it is because the Floyd is double locking while the kahler just single locking and the stability at the bridge is given by the strings' ball ends, on the other hand a single locking system requires more time to tune up...

in my experience I never found Kahlers 2200 & 2300 with SERIOUS tuning problems while I found MANY cheap floyd rose copies that were a pain.

An example?My bandmate has an Ibanez RG with a low pro II and stopped to use the bar:it doesn't stay in tune AT ALL.

About the fact that kahlers went out of business, I think it was caused by the fact that the Floyd were meant from the beginning as replacement for vintage units, and in this configuration their installation was easier, but I also remember MANY top class players who always used heavily kahlers: Dave Murray and Adrian Smith,Brain May, Mustaine & Friedman, Kerry King among the others...

All of them were using bad tremolo systems? I don't think so.

noodlesatf
11-04-2005, 02:24 PM
Try doing double stop and unison bends on a Floyd. 'Nuff said.

IMHO, the biggest oversight Kahler made was not offering a lock at the bridge. If a Kahler locked at the bridge like a Floyd does, then they would be every bit as stable as a non-recessed Floyd. And for what it's worth, you can pull back further on a Kahler than you can on a non-recessed Floyd.

Cuthbert
11-04-2005, 02:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]

IMHO, the biggest oversight Kahler made was not offering a lock at the bridge.


[/ QUOTE ]

+1.

Shawn Lutz
11-04-2005, 02:33 PM
that settles it then, its "Floyd Blows" vs. "Gahler" 3pm at the flag pole, bring it biotches /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Budman68
11-04-2005, 02:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
that settles it then, its "Floyd Blows" vs. "Gahler" 3pm at the flag pole, bring it biotches /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


<font color="aqua">"oh, it's already been brought" ! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font>

LesPaulCustom
11-04-2005, 05:36 PM
<font color="yellow">I'll probably be beaten like a baby harp seal for this, but, here's my opinion.

I don't have a problem with Kahlers, the majority of my guitars have Kahlers.

From an engineering standpoint, I think the Kahler is much better constructed and designed as far as adjustability.

I think a Kahler sounds a little fuller to my ears, not so brittle or harsh.

I kinda like the fact that I can palm-mute as I want to on a Kahler equipped guitar and not worry about going sharp, and to me, the feel is a little better.

It's all personal preference. A Kahler was never designed to do what a Floyd will do, it's more of a subtle effect IMO. </font>

Accept2
11-04-2005, 07:19 PM
Kahler versus Floyd is alot like the old battle between Mac and the PC. One chose to allow licensing even to people who made the cheapest copies and it spread like wilfire, and brought its creater riches from liecensing fees. The other didnt allow liecensing fees, keep quality high, but had created a disadvantage with being priced high. In the end, I like both, but I would take a Kahler over a Floyd anyday of the week. In the Mac world, it will be interesting to see in a few years when PC software will actually run on a Mac using Mac OS and no emulator if they steal a chunk of PC business...........

hgsmith
11-04-2005, 07:32 PM
I love both, I find my Kahler to be a better platform for my GK3 installation. Strings stay aligned with the pickup during use.

Birdzeyeee
11-04-2005, 11:42 PM
I like Kahlers better than the Washburn Wonderbar! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Don't like the string ball end slots on a Kahler. Poor design and they break sometimes. Strings would slip out sometimes when installing a new set. Strings also used to break like a MOFO with the Kahler. I remember buying "reinforced" strings for the Kahler specifically to improve the problem. They has brass windings to add strength by the ends. Helped somewhat.

The stiffer springs (adapted from the Kahler bass system) and short trem bar sucked. Kahler offered this because 99% of players didn't like the "squishy" spring feel and flimsy trem arms. The heavier steel arm was too short by an inch or so - and it still didn't feel like a Floyd!

DeMartini, Lynch, Viv, EVH. etc. could have choosen any locking system they wished, yet they chose a non-recessed Floyd. Bottom line, I'd take the Floyd set up like the "masters" or use a fixed bridge / stop tailpiece and focus more on technique / playing skills. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Orchid
11-05-2005, 12:10 AM
I need help for my guitar, it's got a Kahler 2320. I figured out how to adjust the spring tension, but now I need to know how to raise/lower the action, because I detuned it the other day and the 1st string was hitting the frets. Also, it's going out of tune pretty easily when I use the bar.

El_Kabong
11-05-2005, 12:38 AM
I bought one of the new Kahler bridges. But it's the hard tail version. It sounds and feels great. I just don't feel like locking strings anymore, so I will do without th whammy.

I am not a big floyd fan, those little blocks are so easy to overtighten. I have cracked more than my fair share. I also prefer the ball end of strings at the bridge, not at the machine head.

But to each their own. The best thing is that we have a choice.

Cuthbert
11-05-2005, 01:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I need help for my guitar, it's got a Kahler 2320. I figured out how to adjust the spring tension, but now I need to know how to raise/lower the action, because I detuned it the other day and the 1st string was hitting the frets. Also, it's going out of tune pretty easily when I use the bar.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.kahlerparts.com/Part_Pages/Downloads.htm

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Orchid
11-05-2005, 01:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I need help for my guitar, it's got a Kahler 2320. I figured out how to adjust the spring tension, but now I need to know how to raise/lower the action, because I detuned it the other day and the 1st string was hitting the frets. Also, it's going out of tune pretty easily when I use the bar.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.kahlerparts.com/Part_Pages/Downloads.htm

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I already got that, but that seems more like a diagram rather than an explanation on how to set it up.

Cuthbert
11-05-2005, 02:31 PM
If you are downlaoding the setup manual of the 2200 and 2300 it explain which tools to use and where to use it in order to change the stiffness of the tremolo, the action, the intonation and the spacin of the saddles...

BLOOD SPLATTER
11-05-2005, 08:16 PM
"What's so bad about Kahlers?" <font color="red"> ....nothing!! </font>

toejam
11-05-2005, 09:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I like Kahlers better than the Washburn Wonderbar! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/popcorn.gif



[/ QUOTE ]
LOL I actually liked the Wonderbar better than the Kahler. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

toejam
11-05-2005, 09:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I kinda like the fact that I can palm-mute as I want to on a Kahler equipped guitar and not worry about going sharp

[/ QUOTE ]
If you can't palm mute on a Floyd without it going sharp, you've got a technique issue you've gotta work on. /images/graemlins/poke.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

roodyrocker
11-06-2005, 06:29 PM
I have guitars with both types of trems as well as string thru and fixed bridge. I like them all and see no big advantage to a Floyd as many here claim. The Kahler has always been just as stable for me as a Floyd, it doesn't go sharp or flat when you bend strings while also hitting an open string as a Floyd does, you don't loose those little string blocks like on a Floyd, the whole thing doesn't go out of tune if you break a string live as a Floyd does, its faster/easier to string up than a Floyd, and the thing doesn't fall out of the guitar if I remove all the strings at the same time as Floyd would.
So whats so bad about a Kahler then? As blood Splatter said...Nothing /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rudy

Birdzeyeee
11-06-2005, 06:50 PM
I prefer Kahlers better on early to mid 80's Charvels only because the Floyd nut allen screws were drilled completely thru the neck. All luthiers and guitar repairmen have advised that this weakened the already weakest point of the neck, causing the tendency for all sorts of neck issues including complete breakage.

The early Floyd locking nuts were intended to be used on strat headstock necks which have thicker wood to compensate as opposed to the more fragile Charvel pointies. George Lynch had Kahler lock nuts on his Charvel Strat pointies with non-recessed Floyds. Remember the reverse pointy Sub graphic? This was the reason.

Guys like Lynch, DeMartini, Viv Campbell, all used strathead Charvels with non-recessed Floyds cause the headstocks were a better durability match for the early Floyd lock nut.

On the new Charvels, Kahlers are not even offered. That should tell you something. In the early to mid 80's, a Charvel with a Kahler was always a few hundred bucks cheaper than the same guitar Floyd Rose equipped. But the Floyd nut was an issue with a pointy until Floyd changed their design later on.

On my Kahler equipped Charvels, I don't use the bar at all and leave the locking nut unlocked. But I would rather a vintage trem screwed down like a fixed bridge vs. a Kahler system.

lerxstcat
11-06-2005, 07:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
1. Hard to get parts for.

2. All the most talented 80's guitar heros; ie: Lynch, EVH. DeMartini used non-recessed Floyd Roses.

3. The rollers are a pain in the ass (strings would hang up, etc.) and the trem arm was flimsy.

The steel ones are better than the brass ones. But they still are a very distant second to a correctly set up non-recessed Floyd Rose. If I can't have this Floyd setup, my next choices would be string thru or stop tail.

Its funny how in '85 Kahler switched to the heavier bar and springs to try and be more like Floyd Rose.

If you forced me to use a Kahler, this would be my setup preferences: stainless steel with soft springs, palm control arm, keep the system set up nice, keep the rollers oiled, etc. That would be the best setup for a Kahler. And I would only use it about half or less of the time I would use a Floyd.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. You can buy incomplete Kahlers on Ebay for little money.
So it has one saddle missing but you paid $35 for all the parts you'll probably ever need. Kahlers don't break parts as often as Floyds do. I have guitars with Kahlers that are 20 years old and nothing has had to be replaced. Of course I clean and oil them every string change; that's pretty much all you have to do.

2. As said above, Friedman and Mustaine used Kahlers for a long time. Mustaine's so-so, but Friedman smokes everybody you named. He is much more of a master than EVH, Lynch or DeMartini.

3. As I said above, if you lube the moving parts every couple of months the rollers will never sieze up. Now I admit if you use heavy strings Kahlers are problematic, but as long as it's 10s or lighter, no problems. Again, though, I have a parts trem I got for $35 off Ebay and also a Kahler Spyder that's a Floyd-style, also bought for $35 off Ebay, which is a bit nicer than a regular Floyd.

The lack of a lock at the bridge and the weaker locking clamp are the Kahler's flaws. If you bend the string ends over the cam the ball ends will stay put and return to zero.
If you have problems with tuning it's usually the locking clamp getting grooved on the underside where you can't see it. But the tuning stability you have regarding unison bends, double stops and when you break a string, are big pluses. Frankly I don't wank on the whammy as much as I used to, but you can do it pretty well on the Kahler as the Floyd if you're not going nuts with it every minute. I also have Floyded guitars and enjoy them for their attributes as well, and even a couple with the Wonderbar, which has most of the pluses of the Kahler and can be put on and taken off a guitar without leaving a big crater.

Socket wrench vs. pipe wrench vs. box wrench~! Which one's best? Depends on the job you need to do, right? I love the fact that it's not just Bigsbys and Strat-type trems anymore!

scaristei
11-07-2005, 01:21 AM
I like them both....they are both different and the "differences" make me play a little differently....But... as far as Kahler parts being hard to find....Oh please crawl out from under your rock ! For the past year Kahler has been back in business (just google it - you will find the site) and you can buy any part you need, including new units ! I just purchased six string screws...!
Now it is still cheaper to find it on ebay (before I found their site, I purchased two complete tremolo units for "parts"), but they are definitely back "in business" and parts are clearly available ! Oh, you don't have to worry about any of their parts not fitting like you do with the floyds - licensed units - because they are all made by the same place ! ! !!

toejam
11-07-2005, 01:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
As said above, Friedman and Mustaine used Kahlers for a long time. Mustaine's so-so, but Friedman smokes everybody you named.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but they used the fixed bridge models. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Chrisb
11-07-2005, 07:12 AM
The Kahler Flat Mount is the ugliest trem out there in my opinion. Cosmetic issues aside I've never seen one come close to staying in tune as well as a OFR or a Schaller Floyd. I've yet to try the other variations on the Kahler, there is one that doesn't look to bad cosmetically so I'd be open to trying that at some point.

The trems I like have nothing to do with who played or endorsed them, thats complete /images/graemlins/bs.gif In fact my favorite trem is the incredible trem on the Parker Fly. With locking tuners it can't be beat, its so responsive.

The primary reason I rag on Kahler's is because of the massive amount of space they take up compared to a recessed floyd. But given a choice as far as the unit itself between a vintage trem and a Kahler I'd take the Kahler design. If they just managed to compact the damn thing a little it wouldn't annoy me so much.

noodlesatf
11-07-2005, 11:40 AM
I had a Parker Fly, and I absolutely hated the trem on it. It never stayed in tune, was a PITA to intonate, and my heavy right hand would constantly knock the strings off the saddles.

Kahlers may have a larger footprint, but they most certainly do not take more space. The amount of wood that is routed out of the guitar for a Floyd is nuts. How many times have you seen someone do a pull up on a Kahler and rip the bridge off the top of the guitar? I've seen TONS of Floyd studs ripped out of tops from whammy abuse.

Why do we get involved in these religious debates? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Cuthbert
11-07-2005, 04:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As said above, Friedman and Mustaine used Kahlers for a long time. Mustaine's so-so, but Friedman smokes everybody you named.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but they used the fixed bridge models. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Kerry King, Brian May, Steve Lynch, Sambora, the guys from Judas Priests, Phil Collen, Dave Murray, Adrian Smith and others were all using the fixed bridge? /images/graemlins/poke.gif

And all of the them are nobody compared to EVH and David lynch... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

What's wrong with Kahlers? Nothing! /images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Just...some players like them, some others dont'...just a matter of tast, and I think it would be wise to recognize it in order to avoid holy wars on it... /images/graemlins/toast.gif

Bert
11-07-2005, 11:44 PM
I like the Kahler Pro trems a lot, but I'm having a hell of a time finding a replacement Kahler lock nut in Gold. Please PM me if you can help out!

toejam
11-08-2005, 07:36 AM
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As said above, Friedman and Mustaine used Kahlers for a long time. Mustaine's so-so, but Friedman smokes everybody you named.

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Yeah, but they used the fixed bridge models. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Kerry King, Brian May, Steve Lynch, Sambora, the guys from Judas Priests, Phil Collen, Dave Murray, Adrian Smith and others were all using the fixed bridge? /images/graemlins/poke.gif


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What the hell are you talking about?!? /images/graemlins/poke.gif He mentioned about Marty and Dave, and I said THEY used the fixed bridge version of the Kahler. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cuthbert
11-08-2005, 08:55 AM
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What the hell are you talking about?!? /images/graemlins/poke.gif He mentioned about Marty and Dave, and I said THEY used the fixed bridge version of the Kahler. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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I am talking about the people who are using kahlers, since your point is "since VH and Lynch (from Dokken) weren't using kahlers they are bad tremolos"... /images/graemlins/poke.gif

~K~
11-08-2005, 09:26 AM
yeah look at that huge assed route ..

http://www.jcfmembers.com/kevin/route.jpg

Zerberus
11-08-2005, 10:31 AM
Yeah, almost as wide as a pickup... absolutely huge compared to a Floyd rout... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

~K~
11-08-2005, 11:34 AM
on a side note I was bored so I machined a plate to lock the kahler pros to hartail. I've read a lot of people that have kahlers don't mind them because they don't use the bar.APM 3310's are a bitch to find and there are a lot of kahlered guitars out there. It got me to thinking about blocking mine.

toejam
11-08-2005, 12:14 PM
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What the hell are you talking about?!? /images/graemlins/poke.gif He mentioned about Marty and Dave, and I said THEY used the fixed bridge version of the Kahler. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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I am talking about the people who are using kahlers, since your point is "since VH and Lynch (from Dokken) weren't using kahlers they are bad tremolos"... /images/graemlins/poke.gif

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When did I ever say that about VH or Lynch anywhere in this thread?!? /images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif You need to pay attention more. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif It's true, I don't care for Kahlers, but never did I even say it in this thread. /images/graemlins/poke.gif /images/graemlins/fart.gif

~K~
11-08-2005, 01:02 PM
Works great and bolts right in where the springs were ..


http://www.jcfmembers.com/kevin/kahlerplate.jpg

Budman68
11-08-2005, 01:10 PM
<font color="aqua">my design is close to that, but mine mounts to the tensioning hole... /images/graemlins/smile.gif </font>

sully
11-08-2005, 01:14 PM
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<font color="aqua"> but mine mounts to the tensioning hole... /images/graemlins/smile.gif </font>

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fun with context! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

toejam
11-08-2005, 01:17 PM
Interesting.

~K~
11-08-2005, 01:38 PM
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<font color="aqua">my design is close to that, but mine mounts to the tensioning hole... /images/graemlins/smile.gif </font>

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Did it this way so you only had to remove the springs, it's an easy bolt in and it's nice and solid ..

Budman68
11-08-2005, 01:49 PM
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<font color="aqua">my design is close to that, but mine mounts to the tensioning hole... /images/graemlins/smile.gif </font>

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Did it this way so you only had to remove the springs, it's an easy bolt in and it's nice and solid ..

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<font color="aqua">Absolutely, I wasn't implying anything, just that is what funny that we were fairly close in design. </font>

~K~
11-08-2005, 01:54 PM
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Absolutely, I wasn't implying anything, just that is what funny that we were fairly close in design.

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Didn't think you were implying anything ..

Lesse the pics of yours ..

Tekky
11-08-2005, 01:57 PM
"Form follows function" - Louis H. Sullivan (Famous architect)

jgcable
11-08-2005, 02:28 PM
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Why dont alot of people like Kahlers? Besides the fact that they are kind of ugly, any other reasons? I like the fact that weather pulling up or down on the bar, it doesent change the height of the strings. Could a Kahler Flyer replace a Floyd recessed, or would you have to angle the neck?

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hmm... "weather pulling up or down on the bar".
hmm... What does climate have to do with it. Also, how the heck do you pull down on the bar? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

sully
11-08-2005, 02:37 PM
dude....as the barometric pressure drops and rises, so do kahler bars! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Budman68
11-08-2005, 04:00 PM
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Lesse the pics of yours ..

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<font color="aqua">Kev, check your PM </font>

Birdzeyeee
11-09-2005, 12:41 AM
Who's custom ordering a new Charvel San Dimas or GMW with a Kahler? That's what I thought. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Marty "Kenny G." Friedman is NOT in the same boat as early EVH, Warren DeMartini, and George Lynch. No Sharpnel guy is even remotely close to the same category. Sorry. /images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Kahlers are OK, especially if they're blocked K-Maynard style! /images/graemlins/toast.gif That's a great idea for those stuck with the larger footprint from the system and looking to improve tuning stability.

The only Kahler I liked was a stainless model with palm control arm that I purchased to have installed on an older Charvel with the original vintage trem. Was able to have this one set up better or equal to my Floyd equipped git fiddles. I liked the spongyness feel and the palm control arm. The stainless rollers and bridge sounded much better than Kahler brass roller models. Those suck. Don't like their Floyd copies either.

If American Precision Metal is back making classic Kahlers from the 80's that's good for new parts source. Kahler had a crude website up a couple of years ago but I haven't been interested enough to recheck since I don't have any Kahler equipped guitars anymore.

May even buy a palm control roller model from them in the future. Guess they stopped making golf clubs. I like my Callaways better anyways. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chrisb
11-10-2005, 06:33 AM
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Marty "Kenny G." Friedman

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Ooooh boy would I disagree strongly with that statement but I won't even start that discussion here.

The route for a Kahler isn't the problem its the actual space taken by the trem itself and its cosmetic appearance that pisses me off.

Cool stability thing you came up with there Kev.

I want to try one of the Kahler Flyers, aren't they kinda smaller look more like a vintage trem?

pro-fusion
11-10-2005, 03:03 PM
I go back and forth on Kahlers. Overall, I'd say they have a slightly better tone than Floyds but less sustain. I love the feel of a Kahler, but they are too damn fussy and require too much maintenance to work right.

Birdzeyeee
11-10-2005, 05:03 PM
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I go back and forth on Kahlers. Overall, I'd say they have a slightly better tone than Floyds but less sustain. I love the feel of a Kahler, but they are too damn fussy and require too much maintenance to work right.

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+1

I do love the feel of the original spongy Kahler for variety as long as its a stainless steel unit w/ stainless rollers and palm control arm. The brass units w/ brass rollers are weaker constructed and suck the living sustain from your sound.

Kahler should have discontinued the brass model and focus on improving the original stainless model by improving the quality, keeping all parts high grade stainless, improving the lock nut, ditching the section that the string balls clip into and making that a locking vice like Floyd. THAT is the only thing they needed to copy from Floyd Rose, nothing else.

Kahler had a window of opportunity to improve the stainless design as mentioned above. THEY DROPPED THE BALL; ie: JUMPED THE SHARK. Their designers / engineers / marketing people suffered from a gross total lack of focus.

Instead Kahler chose to further decrease and alienate potential converts. Started making weak copies of Floyd Rose. Promoted Kahler users to convert to the heavier springs so it would be "more like a Floyd" (this was a music store's words back in the day, not mine). Kahler lost more market share, went to shit financially, went into the golf club business.

Overall Floyd is far superior because Kahler did not improve the engineering on what was great and unique about their systems. The minute you wanna be your competetion instead of improving on your unique traits, its only a matter of time before your market position gets weaker until it dies out.

Understand that I would use Kahler if they had done what I suggested. Floyds are not perfect, but far more superior as it stands now.

The Kenny G. ref was a joke. Marty didn't even use a tremelo, he used a Kahler fixed bridge. Talented? Yes, but is not even in the top 10 when talking about main influences like Lynch, early EVH, DeMartini - hell, even Ronnie from TNT.

Again, you don't see the new Charvels offering Kahlers. I rest my case.

Orchid
12-05-2005, 07:00 PM
Alright, I need help on my Kahler. It's a 2320, and the problem is that it isn't staying in tune for shit. I tune it up perfectly and literally just play like a riff, and it goes flat. I'm assuming that it's probably because I'm not setting it up correctly, if not, then what could I do to make the tuning stable?

NickCormier
12-06-2005, 10:45 PM
Marty could accomplish better control over the instrument WITHOUT a floyd than EVH, Lynch, Demartini, Malmsteen, MANY more, with the exception of Vai.. Marty can bend his notes to the correct pitch while EVH had to use the whammy.. EVH also needs to tap his songs, when Jason Becker proved stuff like Hot for Teacher can easily be played just alternate picking and sound perfect, maybe better than EVH's tapping method.

Once again, Marty is the only shrapnel guitarist along with Becker and MacAlpine that isnt all about speed.. altho Marty can easily achieve Malmsteen speed

VitaminG
12-07-2005, 01:29 AM
Greg Howe wasn't all about speed. Neither was Vinnie Moore or Michael Lee Firkins. Or Paul Gilbert or Michael Fath.

Bit of a Marty fan-boy? /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

LexLuthier
12-07-2005, 12:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Alright, I need help on my Kahler. It's a 2320, and the problem is that it isn't staying in tune for shit. I tune it up perfectly and literally just play like a riff, and it goes flat. I'm assuming that it's probably because I'm not setting it up correctly, if not, then what could I do to make the tuning stable?

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Replace the springs, once they start losing tension the party is over.
Make sure the rollers are loose and lubricated.
Check the roller bearings, if they are gritty replace them.
Check the inside of the lock nut, if there are big grooves in the housing, replace the nut.

Orchid
12-08-2005, 05:20 PM
What are the roller bearings?

sl2lover
01-17-2006, 04:22 PM
Like Marty or not, he can do it all!! And better than most!! Oh and Kahlers rule!!

Racerx2k
01-20-2006, 03:12 PM
My first REAL guitar was an 86' Charvel Model 4, with a Kahler, and I loved the fact that I could yank on the bar all night, and it would stay in tune quite well. Only prob I ever had was the time I reverse-bombed so hard, I damned-near took the bend out of the trem bar! A good downward push on the bar, with it off to the side quickly re-bent it. Whew!