Winding direction on slant headstock affects tension, displacement of Floyd nut

[slacker]

Put a capo on a guitar but do not retune to E. Does the tension change?
Put a capo on a guitar, this time retune to E. Does the tension change?

Try bending the E string to the G string at the 1st fret.
Try bending the E string to the G string at the 12th fret.


SCIENCE

same deflection force for me, behind or past fretted string.

Repeating, from my test, the heavy gauge G1 had a definite loss in tension when winding from the short side.

[toejam]

Does anyone else think 'slacker' is just a troll trying to get his bullshit to appear in google.

Yes. It's a weird first post on a forum, especially considering the fact he's wrong about the tension changing.

[metalhobo]

Locked at nut, the overall string tension will change when fretted at the 12th?

not an appreciable amount. only very slightly due to finger pressure

[metalhobo]

Repeating, from my test, the heavy gauge G1 had a definite loss in tension when winding from the short side.

unless you're replacing the bridge with a tension scale I'm not sure how you can back-up this claim

[toejam]

https://www.premierguitar.com/gear/j...-of-perception

[slacker]

There were two points to this thread, and I regret bringing up tension. I wish I could post a photo. This link is a photo of my string winding method on a dinky headstock:

https://ibb.co/cDtv6hN

I hope you agree that this method creates less lateral force on the nut which over time will help avoid a repair expense.

https://www.premierguitar.com/gear/j...-of-perception

Thank you for the link. I have also been reading physics forums. In this link, mythbuster or not, it is again inconclusive on force needed to bend. I am a musician speaking, not a physicist. Fretting a string bends it. More obvious on heavy gauge. That is where I noticed the floppiness, at least when unclamped.

Like the funny headstock photo in this thread shows, when clamped, total length is moot. But as a musician, I am very sensitive to changes in resistance to bending. On a standard stratocaster six point I found that after left hand bend some tension is trapped behind the saddle, string goes flat. Whammy dive resets the string tension, string is in tune. In my search for tuning stability, I drilled the six point sustain block to within about 11mm of the base plate so that the string wind on the ball end was just behind the saddle contact. This greatly increased tuning stability with left hand bend. But to my surprise, it also made it easier to left hand bend. That is where the confusion with total string length comes in.

[toejam]

Riddle me this. If you wind the strings the correct way, or even backwards like you're doing, is your Floyd still coming back to being properly leveled like it should be?

[paranoid]

There is for sure some side load on the nut with a slanted head stock, not doubt. There is also alot of pull towards the neck, which kinda helps hold it in place. I how ever own over 50 angled head stock Charvels from the 80's both standard and reverse and have 0 of them that the screws have pulled and the nut slide sideways. I do how ever check screws and such all over the guitar when I set them up to make sure there are no loose screws. These guitars are all well over 30 years old, not gonna reinvent that wheel now.

[ed]

Is this one of those tonewood conversations?

[metalhobo]

Is this one of those tonewood conversations?

no, this is physics, not cork sniffing mumbo jumbo

[pianoguyy]

In fairness, even though the general concept of the topic is bumpkiss, I am willing to state that:

1. Yes, a left leaning headstock may have left leaning pressure. And then less left pressure if the strings aren't as 'left' on the posts. But that same can be said for a reverse headstock, with right leaning pressure. Or even with a Gibson style 3-on-3 headstock where the tension of one side is heavier than the others. It is not wrong, it is just wrong.

2. Also, my initial sentiment of capos and Fender scale length vs Gibson scale length and even adjusting saddles for intonation - while the tension does stay the same, it is possible that a break angle may cause different tension. Not because of this science, but because of that science. Completely different scenario.


But my example of breaking a 10 foot long piece of wood in half over and over again holds true. The plank is the same strength throughout the entire length. You are using 'science stuff' to break it. Eventually the 'science stuff' can no longer break it. It did not get stronger as it broke. You didn't get weaker with each break. You simply can't break the smaller piece because of 'science stuff' the same way you could break the bigger pieces.
A guitar string wrapped on 2 poles has X-tension. Instead of using a bridge, nut, or frets - you can use 2 slides on either end, it will change the pitch depending on where you place the slides. At no point was the tension ever changed. You can go all kinds of Robert Johnson or Duane Allman on that shit. Pitch change galore. But tension remains constant.

[CaptNasty]

I have Floyded instruments from the 80s, 90s, and throughout the 2000s. Some of the nuts are top loaded, some back loaded. None have had issues with the nut moving laterally on the neck. Zero. Not one. Not sure that what you experienced is inherent to all Floyded instruments. I suspect that this would be the result of faulty mounting, soft wood, excessive removal and remounting of the nut or some combination of the three. Or it could be the result of the nut taking a whack.

As for tension, so long as we have not slipped into a parallel universe where the laws of physics are different, the perceived tension of a guitar string is determined by the elasticity of the string material, actual string tension, and the length of the string between rigid anchors.

On a non-double locking guitar, the anchors are the tuners and where the string takes the oblique bend to go down into the sustain block.

On a double locking guitar, the anchors are the nut (when locked) and the string retainer block in the saddle.

I beleive that you think there is a difference, but it is probably just a case of confirmation bias. Now if you measured actual string tension and came up with a significant difference in numbers, that would be interesting to see.

The difference between an inside and outside wind would only alter the scale length by a couple of millimeters and the difference in tension required to reach the same pitch should be negligible. A wound nickel string that is .042” in diameter and tuned to “E” only has a difference of .4 Kg of force between 25.5” scale length and 24.75” (~19mm). That translates to roughly .02 Kg/mm.

As for fretting the 12th fret, that is called a “deformation” and does not alter the anchor point as the finger is not a rigid anchor.

Check out Young’s Modulus and Hooke’s Law if you want to dig into the math behind this.

[Nightbat]

There were two points to this thread, and I regret bringing up tension. I wish I could post a photo. This link is a photo of my string winding method on a dinky headstock:

https://ibb.co/cDtv6hN

I hope you agree that this method creates less lateral force on the nut which over time will help avoid a repair expense.

in your pic, the strings actually still do not lay at the bottom of the crown, which shows you will still have wear on the crowns of the nut from lateral friction when locking the strings
Side note: you are able to achieve straight pull at the high E if you were to turn the wind around


Yes, if the string isn't clamped down it will 'ride' the side of the crown since -unlike a regular nut- the walls are sloped, whenever you fret a note close enough to the nut to push the string in the slot, it will also detune when this happens
So all the more reasons to use the locking feature of a floyd nut

[slacker]

in your pic, the strings actually still do not lay at the bottom of the crown, which shows you will still have wear on the crowns of the nut from lateral friction when locking the strings
Side note: you are able to achieve straight pull at the high E if you were to turn the wind around


Yes, if the string isn't clamped down it will 'ride' the side of the crown since -unlike a regular nut- the walls are sloped, whenever you fret a note close enough to the nut to push the string in the slot, it will also detune when this happens
So all the more reasons to use the locking feature of a floyd nut

The goal is to create opposing pressure, here E and B push against the rest. So we can enjoy the aesthetic of a slant (and possibly great tension on low with reverse )when opposing three or Music Man style might be better.

Many here are fortunate to own high end guitars, I am not. And one would expect those to be higher precision and stable over time. My guitar is a DX10D, 2001, Jackson catalog confirms body is alder. It has a 43mm nut. This places the strings so close to the edge of the frets that alignment must be perfect or an outside string will slide off the fret. I corrected this just now. At nut, wood glue and toothpick shavings, I was able to center the nut, moving it back 1/2mm which the slant .010 (out of spec) strings standard tuning wound the normal direction had shoved it over the sixth side. The ten's are now drop C#, wound the opposite way, so I expect it to stay. The neck pocket is tight, precision made. Elegant, Japan. But low E still a bit closer to edge than high E. Pulled neck. Floyd's make this easy - detune, clamps hold strings, remove springs, drop out trem do not have to restring. Neck pocket shows date - September 2001. So now you know if the serial is 9670nnn or lower it is 2001 to 1996. Used the old stock 34mm zinc sustain block (brass 37mm now, 42mm stuck out the back) as sanding block to remove varnish layer, also paper around screw driver on lower pocket side curve. The varnish layer is about .25mm and extends down 5mm from top of guitar, rest of pocket is bare wood. Not a luthier, only pay one for critical work. Reassembled, first and sixth to edge close to perfect now.

I do not have the lab bench to test it however my hypothesis will prove correct that when unclamped the string beyond the nut and bridge affect overall tension when bending. This is relevant to JCF because of the slant headstock, and low end Jackson have six point trem, and of course the string thru models. It is well documented in six point tremolo demonstrations how string behind the bridge and nut claim tension added during left hand bend. The tension is relieved when string is brought slack with tremolo.

For winding direction, the tension difference is slight - but there is absolutely a noticeable difference in winding direction, normal slant, low string, with a .068. That little distance is critical because of the low tension on the string at G1.

Thank you for all the replies, there is good information in this thread to help the next player.

[slacker]

In a physics forum discussion on this topic it is stated that the "mass per unit length changes" as a string is stretched. This explains my experience with tension changing even when length of string past the nut is changed, but at the same pitch.

Source https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...-sound.995126/