How many Grover Jackson's existed in the 80's ?

[Axewielder]

Over the past 30 years, US Jacksons have not held value up to inflation except for very few rare things. Very few Jacksons have any actual investment value.

That's probably true for new guitars purchased from dealers which immediately plummet in value. I think used guitars may have kept up with inflation, but I don't have hard numbers. It's interesting you say 30 years, because that's sort of the cutoff for "vintage" instruments. Certain vintage instruments basically do nothing investment-wise for 30 years, then take off. Most are bad investments, of course. So I'm not really disagreeing with you.

[xenophobe]

That's probably true for new guitars purchased from dealers which immediately plummet in value. I think used guitars may have kept up with inflation, but I don't have hard numbers. It's interesting you say 30 years, because that's sort of the cutoff for "vintage" instruments. Certain vintage instruments basically do nothing investment-wise for 30 years, then take off. Most are bad investments, of course. So I'm not really disagreeing with you.

Well, look what $1000 will buy you right now. Most of those used $1000-ish Jacksons have been $1000-ish for greater than 15 years. How much is a used minty Jackson Strat with ebony, sharkies and a Floyd? How much was that guitar15 years ago? About the same price. Since they're still about the same price, they've lost value due to inflation.

It looks like some of the early SD neckthru stuff is picking up in value a little, but if you adjust the value for inflation, you've spending less money now for the same thing back then.

You know, I wish I could say it isn't so. Jackson is my brand, but with the exception of a few rare artist sig guitars and artist owned guitars, values haven't kept up.

And then you look at the used custom stuff... all the older stuff kinda took a bit of a hit when all the options you want have become available on Custom Selects.

[Nik]

...the "when" bit I referred to was the demise of Grover Autographs always go up in value whith death.... Joking apart, I agree with you xenophobe - these guitars are not to a standard that evokes images of superior Made in USA craftmanship and finnish. As for the others signatures, I guess the same applies - worth more once they are no longer with us..but probably yes, you are right : Worth more than a signature to be found on hundreds of medium range guitars..Now for inflation : Almost every item you can buy new will devaluate the moment you take it out of the store. Whilst it's true that some will go up again, given enough time, others may not (others will simply go straight to worthless). If you compare the original prices of these Jackson guitars and take into account inflation, chances are you are "loosing" on your "investment". If you have bought the axe secondhand, have played it and had fun..and then you are still able to get your money back or even make a buck or two - all is sweet. Investment and Collector don't always go hand in hand..People collect the funniest things - I should know... and there is a lesson for every buddying collector : Only collect what you really like and because you like it, never as an investment. Guitars included.

[Nik]

"Vintage" is a word in constant renewal...I remember reading on a forum a 1990's dated post laughing at how guitars from the 70's could be considered vintage. Fast forward 20 odd years and you get an instant "if only" feeling... I think was has happened to Jackson (and probably a few more similar sized guitar manufacturing companies) is that there was no financial cushion to allow a dignified expansion, i.e. : continue churning out high quality guitars from the USA. What makes certain other brands legendary is that they remained in place over decades. For a company the size of Jackson to have expanded manufature to Asia at a relativly young age, when Jackson was not a worldwide household name, was a mistake and converted the name into something less desirable. Please don't get this wrong : I love japanese guitars...most of my collection are japanese..the Jackson I hope to get is the first american guitar in over 30 years... I am only talking from a company quality point of view. The dilluation went all the way when Jackson was sold on for the second time to the Fender conglomerate. Made in China is never a good sign..and guitar brands of more fame have suffered that same fate..remember that the two big brands decided early on to bring out a second name, instead of churning out instruments with their own main brand name. JAckson essentially has been and probably will continue being a guitar for a select market. Not only because they are shredders, Hard Rock guitars, etc... but because you are likely to buy a Jackson more for the sound then for anything else. But hey, if you like playing guitars, that is a good thing, right ?

[pianoguyy]

Just to throw my 2 cents in...

Selling the company vs leaving the company. He sold it, but the deal was for him to 'partner with', which is why he stuck around as an employee for another 5? years.

Vintage was 20 years, then it became 25, now I hear people say 30. Yet, no matter what time frame, vintage has seemed to stop at 1979. No 80's guitars seem to be vintage. There may be Vintage Jacksons, but Jacksons are not vintage. There may be Vintage Kramer guitars., but Kramers are not Vintage. Guitars can be vintage for that particular brand but not vintage in general. I think it has to do with the fact Fender and Gibson went to hell in the 80's, while other brands took the spotlight. And the Vintage Societies don't want to lose their Fender/Gibson market.

And I don't think too many of the newer stuff will ever be considered vintage and will never have any resale at the rate that they are being churned out in overseas factories. Where you used to make a couple thousand a year, you now make a couple thousand a day. Just look at the serial numbers of some of these units, where you can tell you have the 300th unit made on a particular day of a particular year.
It's sort of sad. Really.

[Nik]

...don't start me off on the 2 big brands, pianoguyy During one of these late night searches when you don't know how you ended up watching beautiful girls do unspeakable things to horses (it all started with "Barbie horse" as a Google term , I swear...) - anyway...I also found myself reading a lot of fascinating stuff about the actual Gibson boss. If 10% of the claims made on various forums by people who state to be Gibson employees are true, I think it would be save to say that buying a contemporary Gibson is synonimous to buying a third country slave labour like product, as far as workers morale and motivation is concerned. Is the only "safe" time to get a Gibson which can claim to be a true Gibson in body and soul a pre- 69 or pre- 74 , apart from Custom Shop, etc... ? (I do think that Gibson went to hell before the 80's..whereas Fender just came back from there : as in, Dan Smith)

[Jackson8090s]

And the Vintage Societies don't want to lose their Fender/Gibson market.

The entire problem ^ right there. Also why I will not own a Fender or a Gibson. I'd buy a guitar from Hun-Lee guitar company before I'd ever buy a Fender or Gibson.

[xenophobe]

The demise of Grover... if you're banking on someone's stature to increase in value, you should consider buying GJ2s. The quality appears to be as good or better than USA Jackson. USA Jackson is known for high quality US instruments. Jackson as an overall brand not as much.

Minty SD era Jacksons have appreciated a bit, they're some of the few Jacksons that are actually selling for more used than they were brand new. But that still doesn't mean they've kept up with inflation. Some of the imports actually have some decent collectors value. Charvel Model 88's, 650/750xl, Model 7's and some of the limited run non-market stuff is selling for as much or maybe a little more. USA stuff like VVVs and doublenecks.... haven't really increased in value. They started off high and are still there. Mustaine and Friedman sigs have not really increased a whole lot, but they're worth more than a similar USA counterpart, but the value isn't because of the mechanical signature, it's because they were somewhat limited and the artists are still somewhat relevant to guitarists.

One of the rarest guitars that Jackson ever produced were between 1986-2002... complete guitars with unlicensed factory Strat headstocks. I forget if it was Kotzen, Shannon or someone else who worked at the shop said somewhere between 60-90 factory stratheads left the shop during that time and that the number was very vague because they never kept records on them and it was likely that there were less made than more. Over my whole time here... has to be 15 or 16 years now I've probably seen about a half dozen of them not belonging to Adrian Smith. How much are those worth? I dunno, mine is not for sale, it'll be buried with me, but whatever. I wouldn't take less than $2k and with what you can get with custom select now, value for things you can still make are subjective.

Then look at PRS or high end Ibanez or high end ESP artist models... hell even my 05 Fender Deluxe None More Black which they made 250 is worth more now than what they originally sold for. Gibson Fender and PRS high end doesn't lose a whole lot of initial value and over the longer run tend to do pretty well. The overpriced Fender Jackson Rhoads tribute stuff seems really desirable, but they were already milked so there's nowhere for those values to really go. I'm not even sure if Jackson PCS/LTD's have increased in value much, but I'm fairly sure to say they've probably done a little bit better than inflation.

One of the big reasons why USA Charvel and Jackson prices never really ramped up because about the time the values were starting big increases, there was a lot of drama between the biggest collectors and the market fragmented and community crashed. Charvel Jackson collectors fragmented into Charvel collectors and Jackson collectors, things got secretive and quiet and many people who were getting interested and even some that were moved to different brands. This board never fully recovered and the market didn't either. *

There was so much fucked up backstabbing and faking going on as well. So if you look at a SD Charvel, it might look right... many can even fool the experts who haven't seen or logged or bought the logs or knew who faked or whatever. By logs, I don't mean the company log book, I'm talking about the long standing collectors that have huge lists of Charvel and Jackson guitars, have the ability to look up or remember which guitars are real, who they were owned by... the real ones are tracked as much as possible because the only way to verify if they're real is if you have media or traceable lineage.

One or two times a year... less often now than in years past, someone will come on and post an amazing Charvel Strathead... one expert will come in, say yeah, this feature that feature all looks good, then a day or two later another will come in and say, nope this that the other fake. Those are the only CJ's that have the potential to break $10k, IMO. A handful of people actually know what they're looking at can look in their personal logs, see a Strathead on ebay that looks FAKE dead perfect brand new has a serial never observed by anyone in the last 20 years... vs personal notes... bad refret, neck replaced... whatever. The market is small, high priced and abnormally suspicious and there are not enough of them in the wild or open market to sustain any real interest.

The only real hope I see is that a few of those Charvel mega collectors come together to publish a real coffee table bible... the definitive guide to everything pre and early production Charvel. Whoever does it has to be absolutely right though. A lot of ego and drama and argument will follow. But that's the only way I see that market hitting it's full potential. I don't see it helping modern CJ value in any way though. It might help all the new stratheads a little... but the custom select pricing has pretty much killed true custom value for most of the used market.

Kinda like in the gun world when looking at a MINTY USGI 1911A1, an early gen Colt Single Action or what appears to be a real M1D Garand or German 98k sniper. And when you start critiquing it you don't look at what's right because that doesn't tell you anything, you look for the most minor suggestions that anything has been tampered with, and even then you can't always be 100% certain.


*fwiw, the whole breakup was epic level furious public drama that lasted months with solid weeks of rage with people taking serious sides. I've never, ever witnessed any drama like it in my life. There's enough there for at least a book or two or an economic dissertation on how a community can implode and drive a goods based collectors market into the toilet.

[Nik]

xenophobe, I have just read your post twice. Not because I am thicker than others, but because it was really, really interesting. I had heard about fake Jackson turning up some time ago and that this also contributed to the downwards spirale, but I was not aware that a "collectors war" broke out. I think that there is no chance of ever getting official back-up for an official version and the kind of after-care we all would like to get...so I guess you are right : we have to rely on human kindness (I feel a joke coming up, but can't quite put it into words) if we are ever going to get everything sorted...from models to numbers made to where and when , by whom, the anectodes, the everything to do with Charvel & Jackson. If there are a few of the Boss Men coming together to put a project together that is at least credible, I am sure you could finance a print version via crowdfunding. If that project only serves for everyone interested to have a copy, so be it.... Problem is, it all started of with the persumption of human kindness .... Can't relate to the firearm comparison, as most guns are not available legally to the public here...and those who are (some shotguns and rifles) are only in the hands of those who have passed an examen...but I got the idea

[xenophobe]

That's nice. I always re-read my stuff to make sure I was accurate... as much as I can be after just keeping that in my memory for over a decade and I did put quite a lot in that post. Yeah, there was a very hardcore collectors war on these boards and it didn't end pretty... most of those hard feelings seem to be gone but the effects still remain. The community was flourishing at one time and collectors prices were really going up. When a number of major collectors start showing off major acquisitions of rare pieces it becomes a competition. Just by having a few extra people bidding and wanting those older and rarer guitars prices started noticeably spiking. All the interest in SD Charvels led to a lot of interest in SD Jacksons and helped bump up the whole brand. The lack of this activity afterwards and the sour it put in many more collectors just seeing this happen wasn't a good thing for the collectability of the brand. That was also before the brand started getting really diluted too. It didn't really help that there was an economic crash a bit after all that either.

But there's a whole lot of different reasons why vintage Jackson stuff isn't high dollar market like it probably should be. But the good thing is, if you want a nice early SD Jackson, they're still out there and fairly priced considering what you get and comparable values for other similarly aged instruments.

It's altogether possible there is some huge Charvel Jackson resurgence... Charvel USA is doing really well as a brand... probably better than most of us could have hoped for, but you still don't see them in shops. Charvel has seemed to find their niche, which is the strathead super strat it started out as. Jackson is still kinda floundering.


And this is all just my opinion from how I see things. I was in the middle of that war, but I hadn't taken sides. Everything I recollect is from public posts and privately messing a few of the people in the fight. There's a whole inside perspective on both sides that I wasn't really privy to, it would be up to them to explain themselves while perhaps publishing those coffee table Charvel or Jackson encyclopedias on the early stuff. If that war didn't happen, the market might be ripe for bound definitive books of that nature. Or the brands may just wallow in collector mediocrity because that's where they were destined. Maybe in another decade. Who knows. lol

[neilli]

As you mentioned though Mike, that very 'high roller collector' circumstance caused the prices to climb quickly and probably artificially. Without that, the SD Charvels would probably have not spiked and then crashed - who knows, but perhaps they'd have had a sensible increase over time, instead of the 'boom and bust'. I can't help but think that another factor is the market is currently saturated with stratheads, and that affects the price people will pay. Of course, a $700 pro-mod is a different guitar to a serialised 84 strathead, but that saturation has meant that the impact of the internet-photo has reduced to an extent (as has the 'exclusivity'), and lets face it, that's a huge part of what drives the interest, because with the internet, it's all about visual appeal.

But whatever, buying a Jackson (or Charvel) as a true investment would be a mistake IMO, or at best a very long shot. But if you choose the right guitar for the right money, you'll probably be able to get your money back..

[xenophobe]

Of course you're right about all of that. You could probably write a few pages on stuff I just glossed over, got wrong or just don't remember. Lots of stuff I don't know, I'm sure.

It's just kinda sad you don't see that stuff revered like it should be. But it's good if you're looking for a nice guitar. It's still cheap to find your perfect CS Jackson.

[Nik]

...a little update : Today, a month or two since I started talking to the vendor and confirming that I want that Dinky, he has confirmed that he finally went to the post office and has send the guitar. Should be here Monday. Will posts pictures (if it arrives in one piece). Never ever in my whole life did I have to wait that long for a guitar....makes the nine month waiting for babies look like a piece of cake. Specially if you are not the one with the little screamer inside... I take this moment of anticipated bliss to thank everyone for their contributions. I would like to think that the last page of history has not been written yet, matter of fact I believe the script is still in the making. From the outside looking in, there seems to be a love-hate relationship between the brand, the original and following owners, the players, the collectors, the milkman, etc... It may be my romantic side coming through, but I feel that future generations of both players and collectors will probably have a more remote albeit admiring attitude towards it all. Let's face it people, you are from the generation that actually saw it happen (I am referring to elderly folks like myself) - you saw Jacksons come and go. I have read stories told from the origens on the web that make you feel like you are right there.... Can anyone say that about the beginning of Gibson or Fender ? They can't , because it is too far away in history...but here, with Jackson, we have history in the making. Let me take my pills now and calm down..imagine what I will be like when I actually get the damn thing...

[ps43203]

I am happy for you Nik and glad your happy to get a hold of your baby. It is sad what has happened to Jackson especially. Charvel, will probably be just fine. The unfortunate thing about Charvel's, is the vast amount of clones and the dishonesty regarding those. Jackson's are nowhere to be found out in the real world. You won't see any in GC or any local guitars shops. Jackson's always need to be ordered. There was a time when they were plentiful in shops, I wish I was older then and had the cash to get a few, but now they seem to be hoarded, or just kept in the dark. I wish I knew some of the major players, but I don't aside from one or 2. All I want is an Ontario DK1 and I have pretty much given up, because they are nowhere! The forum here also seems to have really faded over the past few years and not getting any better, probably due to what Xeno described. I had no clue, lol. Anyway, It is what it is, right? Hopefully they will be a return soon.

[Nik]

Thank you ps43203. She is here now. Came three days ago. The first day I just opened the case to see that there was a guitar in there, unbroken. The second day I thought about the implication of the guitar having been tuned a full step down. And the fact that I never had a Floyd Rose. The little wooden block and the allen key made sense after I saw the You Tube video, as suggested by the seller. Personally, I think these things are crazy. Remember I have been on something like a 30 year jail sentence (life, wife, kids,etc..) and this is the first time I am getting in touch with the music world again. At my time no Floyd Rose thing existed. If Jimmy didn't need one, why would anyone else in the world ? It will stay tuned the way it is for the moment..I have come as far as tightening the top up a bit by hand and moving the screw at the bridge a tiny bit each way. Couldn't tune the only out-of-tune string, so went to the online tuner and eventually found that "I have done it in re" meant a full step down . It can stay there until my grandchildren get married, as far as I´m concerned. I am having difficulties reading instruction manuals like that from my Fender Cyber Deluxe. After half a year I picked up the manual and found out how to put it on manual, no effects. Works great ever since. No need to read the rest. I can get clean sound and the normal effects, just like on a normal amp. Will do for me. This is how I feel about guitars, homestudios, drums, bass, keyboards, etc... My Zoom R24 is still in the box. Managed to record with build-in mics , but actually need to read before I can use the looper... You may have guessed by now - Floyd Rose is not for me. Anyway, before admin throws me out for being my own troll, one question : the neck is naked, no gloss on it, nothing. Do I use Gibson Fretboard Conditioner on it ? Anything else better (and available in Europe) ? Thank you. Pictures are to come once I remember how to take the SD out of the Nikon (permanently in "automatic" mode. Better than the celular..)