Jacksons and String retainer bars behind the locking nut?

[elrrek]

Hello folks

I am having some issues with trems, tuning and returning to pitch.

Apart from 2 of my guitars every example - of which we are talking half a dozen or so - the floating trems never return to pitch.

The good ones are:
Japanese build Charvel Pro-Mod with a non-recessed real Floyd which has a string retainer because of the Strat headstock drop.
Japanese built Charvel Fusion Deluxe with a Schaller Charvel branded "floyd" which doesn't have a string retainer and returns to pitch very accurately but not always.

The rest of the the guitars, a selection of 90s and 00s Jacksons with JT 580 LPs all fail to return to pitch. My 2nd Dinky Rev from 94 does okay but if you do some real whammy abuse with it, it goes out of whack.
My Indian Kreater King V, I just look at the trem and it goes out of tune, I accept this as it's a piece of junk.
I have an Ibanez RGD320Z with an Edge III I think and it's not great either.

The guy I take my guitars to says that all of these guitars need a string retainer behind the nut, but only one of my guitars has one. I've checked the catalogs and the current Jackson line-up and I cannot see any models with string retainers.
I ran through the trem equipped models on the ibanez website and their models are inconsistent, some have retainers, some don't.

So, is there any point installing a string retainer on any of these guitars, is it going to help? Or am I just being ridiculous expecting trems to go back to 0?

[ed]

The locking nut makes the string retainer redundant. This is if the locking nut works and it locks the strings. In my experience the jt-580 is a piece of junk. Just my opinion.

[Number Of The Priest]

Verify that the knife edges on all your tremolos are in good condition, and that your new strings are stretched out. I do a rigorous string stretching ritual every time I install new strings, and they still go slightly out of tune when I purposely abuse the tremolo in a non-musical way, even on my best trems (OFR, Ibanez Edge, Gotoh GE1996T).

The JT580LP and Edge III are adequate bridges if set up correctly. Though, if you feel like you want to upgrade the bridges for better units, an OFR and an Edge Pro will be direct retrofits, respectively.

[elrrek]

What about this business where the angle of the string behind the locking nut needs to pull down following the curve/line of the locking nut?

I'm beginning to think the guitars where I want the trems to work are either:

1. too old - like my DinkyRev 1994
2. have a crappy bridge - the RGD320Z

For everything else, I think they are going to get blocked so I don't feel the temptation to use them or replace them with a Gotoh 1996

[Axewielder]

Retainers with locknuts are for crazy people.

Use a guitar tuner and verify you can press down on the strings behind the locknut with it locked down and the strings don't pull sharp. If they do, it's either not locked down tight enough and/or the pad is slipping.

[Kisonen]

I have some ideas.

Stop taking your guitars to that guy who suggested that string retainer will fix trem not returning to pitch. He clearly doesn't have a clue. String retainers on angled headstock guitars just make final tuning after you have locked the strings easier because you have to do less adjustment.

Loose locking nut can cause problems. Check that screws are tight and the base cannot move when you use the trem.

Loose bushings in the body can cause problems. Check by pulling on them when trem unit is off the guitar. Some JT580LP trems have big tolerances on trem posts. If they wobble you can add some teflon tape on the treads and it will make them less loose.

Lube trem knife edges with vaseline or chapstick.

Kreator King V has FR special? It should stay in tune if it is set up right.

Ibanez changed the design of some locking nuts some years ago to get rid of those string retainers. Then again Rg550 Genesis collection uses older style nut string retainer.

I would swap Dinky Rev trem to Schaller lockmeister and swap trem bushings too. I would keep original locking nut.

[Zedder]

Floyd Rose Special saddle shells are made of very soft zinc alloy. Remove strings and check if they have deep grooves caused by overtightening. If they do that is one reason why guitar does not stay in tune, strings are slipping in the clamp when whammy bar is used.

[elrrek]

Okay, lots of good stuff I should already know, thanks folks.

Use a guitar tuner and verify you can press down on the strings behind the locknut with it locked down and the strings don't pull sharp. If they do, it's either not locked down tight enough and/or the pad is slipping.

Regarding this, if the guitars is tuned and everything is fine without the locking nuts being locked, how much should the strings be pulled out of tune once the locks are tighted? My strings are pretty much going sharp on all strings, especially the wounds strings on guitars that are detuned (C standard, 13-56).

[CaptNasty]

First you need to isolate where your tuning problems are coming from. Try the following steps until you isolate the problem:

• Ensure that your locking nuts are firmly tightened. Not too tight, but it needs to be more than finger tight. Test for slippage at the nut by striking a note and pressing that string at the headstock between the tuner and the locking nut.
• Ensure that your string retainer bolts are firmly tightened. Again not too tight...
• Are your string retainers inserted properly with the dimple facing the string retainer bolt?
• Ensure that your saddle retainer bolts are tight
• Does the base of the locking nut or the locking nut clamps have grooves or sign of wear?
• Do the string retainer insert(s) have grooves or show signs of wear?
• Is the bridge floating level? If not try leveling the bridge.
• Are the tremolo mounting posts level? If not they need to be level. You should adjust the action/string height of individual strings by shimming under the saddles, not by adjusting post height. If the posts need adjustment MAKE SURE YOU DO SO WITH ALL TENSION RELEIVED FROM THE BRIDGE AND THE BRIDGE REMOVED!
• Is the knife edge of the tremolo still sharp?
• Are the tremolo mounting posts worn/damaged/pitted?

If everything listed above is good, you can check the following, though these are real long shots:

• Is the Sustain Block loose?
• Is the tremolo claw slipping?
• Is the locking nut loose?
• Is the tremolo catching on anything?
• Are the tremolo mounting posts loose?

Finally, do you rest your hand on the bridge while playing? A very deft touch is required while palm muting or resting your hand on the bridge so as not to apply pressure to the bridge and take the tuning sharp.

[CaptNasty]

Okay, lots of good stuff I should already know, thanks folks.



Regarding this, if the guitars is tuned and everything is fine without the locking nuts being locked, how much should the strings be pulled out of tune once the locks are tighted? My strings are pretty much going sharp on all strings, especially the wounds strings on guitars that are detuned (C standard, 13-56).

Going SHARP is unusual. After depressing the whammy bar, adding more pressure would be unusual unless as you noted the locking nuts are unlocked or there is string slippage thought the locked nut (i.e. nuts are not tightly locked or are worn). In that case string tension moves behind the nut and is not fully released (returned to original tension) when the bar is released. This is caused by friction in the nut. Try putting a very small amount of Vaseline or graphite in the “V” where the string touches the nut to minimize friction.

If you are playing with the locking nuts unlocked, you will have less tuning stability.

String retainers are not need on guitars with angled headstocks. The angle of the headstock is specifically designed to get the strings to the tuners posts at the correct angle. String retainers would be called for on guitars without an angled headstock, such as a Charvel ProMod with the Strat headstock.

[CaptNasty]

Thinking through this, you state that you are in C standard using heavy strings. While a common practice when tuning “down” the heavy strings are the likely culprit. Those wound 4th, 5th and 6th strings are big and you are having more problems with the wound strings than the solid strings. That larger string diameter translates to higher friction and hence a greater tendency to “grab” the nut. Additionally, higher gauge strings require less tension to bring to tune and tuning down requires even less tension, so there’s is less potential energy there to break the increased friction within the nut.

If the wound strings are catching and detuning, the detuning of the solid strings is incidental due to the way a floating bridge works.

If this were me, I would probably get a set of flat wound jazz strings and see if the problem persists. I am not saying you have to use flat wounds to use the Floyd, just it would be a pretty definitive test.

That aside a properly locked nut should prevent all of this.

[hairy-dude]

I have a DK2 with a JT580LP with a brass block. I too had tuning issues like you describe. Turned out to be worn posts. I replaced mine with the larger OFR posts and bushings, and they have been great. I am now replacing all of the bushings and posts in my other Floyd Rose equiped guitars.

I have also had problems with string slippage at the trem, caused by the lock blocks. Tighten them up more or replace them.

I like the JT580LP on my DK2. It's survived many gigs, with minimal problems.

[toejam]

Regarding this, if the guitars is tuned and everything is fine without the locking nuts being locked, how much should the strings be pulled out of tune once the locks are tighted? My strings are pretty much going sharp on all strings, especially the wounds strings on guitars that are detuned (C standard, 13-56).

Going SHARP is unusual.

It's not unusual. Whenever you tune up and then lock the nut, the locking nut pads usually pull the strings slightly sharp, and that's what the fine tuners are on the trem for.

[CaptNasty]

It's not unusual. Whenever you tune up and then lock the nut, the locking nut pads usually pull the strings slightly sharp, and that's what the fine tuners are on the trem for.

On a dive, not on a lock down. It is quite unusual on a dive.

[toejam]

But he was asking about how much it would make the strings sharp when locking the nut down AFTER being tuned up without even using the bar. At least that's how I was comprehending it.