What's fact, what's not and manipulating the public opinion

[Beavis]

No. Carvin has a five-year warranty for any kind of warpage.

No bro, its not. GUITARS: All guitars and basses, including Cobalt acoustic guitars, are warranted for 5 years against manufactures' defects. The following items are not covered under warranty: d) crack or warping due to extreme weather conditions or improper storage.
http://www.carvinservice.com/crg/home.php

However even if they had it, it would prove my point because it then means there`s a company X that is freely offering Y time of warranty including the warpage while company Z cant dare due to their inferrior method/materials used. Anyway the topic is not why they dont offer warranty for warpage, im just saying you cant just get served off of the ltd warranty, it is not your shelter and should not be.

[Nightbat]

Beavis, what part of "personal preference" don't you get

Why isn't everyone playing the AXE-FX, but still clinging to the 100 old tube amp design
Why -if neckthough is superior- people will still prefer bolt-ons?
Why are you using a quarter while there are ergonomically specially designed picks available?

"Quality shouldnt be hit and miss"

Well if $200K lamborghinis can spontaniously combust with risk of loss of life, medication be brought on the market that can kill you if you happen to be that 0.1% of the people that 'may' have an allergical reaction,
fake tits start to leak without reason

Then a flaw in a $2k guitar doesn't sound that odd

And rocket science is engineering,.. not a science

[Beavis]

Dont expect me to answer your post. You obviously dont get my point.

[LouSiffer]

The problem is that you are dealing with 2 important components that are inherintly flawed: People and wood.

People: There are known principals and accepted " sciences " that we rationalize with when working with wood. Such as what woods are bright and which are dark, recommended moisture content after drying, etc. As people, we stick with what works and we try to rationalize what went wrong. Once we find a consistant formula, we do not like to stray from it.

Wood: It is impossible to scientifically prove if neck thru is better than bolt-on for sustain. The reason for this is because no two pieces of wood have the exact same grain pattern or density.....even if you cut them from the same tree, there are still variables that can be argues such as " what portion of the tree did it come from?" Wood cut from the bottom of the tree has been compressed from all the weight versus a piece from the top of the tree. The only accurate way I could think of would be to build the neck-thru and run your tests, measure the air pressur, measure the humidity, check many other varia les I am sure I am forgetting, cut the neck-thru up and turn it into a bolt-on, use the hardware from the neckthru and somehow make sure all the external variables are exactly the same as the neckthru test. Its just not going to happen.-Lou

[Beavis]

The only accurate way I could think of would be to build the neck-thru and run your tests, measure the air pressur, measure the humidity, check many other varia les I am sure I am forgetting, cut the neck-thru up and turn it into a bolt-on, use the hardware from the neckthru and somehow make sure all the external variables are exactly the same as the neckthru test.

Very possible, but they just wont do that for the reasons I have mentioned earlier. Calculus is a great tool, possibly the most amazing thing human being ever invented. It is used for approximation and I am so sure, the method you've mention as well as various other methods can be applied to test the validity of the case. 0.9999 is still 1. You can neglect the butterfly effect. Good points though.

[ralph]

1.) Manufacturers could not possible offer a warranty on wood, you will have to take that up with the tree it came from

2.) Hand made, by definition, means that no two items hand made could be exactly the same, so you have to expect variability between hand made items

3.) 0.9999 does not equal 1, in many instances it can be taken as 1 as long as it is accurate enough for this particular instance

4.) Esp necks in my experience tend to be fatter than other manufactures, perhaps this is why they can use flatsawn wood, maybe not

[Beavis]

1.) Manufacturers could not possible offer a warranty on wood, you will have to take that up with the tree it came from
2.) Hand made, by definition, means that no two items hand made could be exactly the same, so you have to expect variability between hand made items
3.) 0.9999 does not equal 1, in many instances it can be taken as 1 as long as it is accurate enough for this particular instance
4.) Esp necks in my experience tend to be fatter than other manufactures, perhaps this is why they can use flatsawn wood, maybe not

You`re hair splitting. No one is writing an academic paper here, I just gave examples to reinforce what I m trying to point out. So, dont stuck with my previous posts, probably you havent read all of my posts. Anyway, I hope you never get a dud guitar neck. If you do, keep buying the same brand of guitar cause to you, its the nature to blame not the manufacturer right?

[Chad]

You can look at specs, descriptions, ads, etc., but it all comes down to whether or not you bond with an individual guitar. I posted several times in that linked thread and gave my opinion on Jackson's "neck through" naming. But I also said that I still like them just the same.

You can't speak in absolutes when dealing with something like wood. Quartersawn or flatsawn neither guarantee a neck will warp or won't warp. Construction method will not guarantee more or less sustain. You can't do tests that 100% prove anything because it's impossible to narrow it down to one, and only one variable. Neck-through becomes part of the body. If you were to cut the neck to make a bolt-on like Lou mentioned, then the body has been changed and new wood has to be brought into the equation. Or the same wood has to be re-joined,. Then the quality of the joint(s), amount of wood glue, etc. add variables.

Regardless of what those warranties say, I've heard of Fender and so forth providing repair or replacement for warpage issues. I think they put in those exclusion clauses to cover themselves in extreme situations. i.e. idiots that totally and completely abuse their instruments.

[Beavis]

I`ve said everything I needed to say. From now on I will just see what people think . Cause some people are still stuck with warranty, warpage, neck thru thing, instead of getting the whole picture. Thanks for all the inputs anyway.

[Chad]

are you familiar with the balanced/equal/progressive string tension debate? If not, do some reading. I think it's a good module to examine how the guitar industry and players react to advancements (and the introduction of scientific reasoning).

I've studied this topic extensively and there's a lot of bologna out there. Just curious what links you have been reading? I always enjoy reading more about the subject.

[ralph]

Anyway, I hope you never get a dud guitar neck. If you do, keep buying the same brand of guitar cause to you, its the nature to blame not the manufacturer right?

If this does happen to me, I will buy a guitar based on its own merits, not solely on what I read on the internet, regardless of manufacturer

[Chad]

I`ve said everything I needed to say. From now on I will just see what people think . Cause some people are still stuck with warranty, warpage, neck thru thing, instead of getting the whole picture. Thanks for all the inputs anyway.

I guess I don't get "the big picture" and what your point is. Sounds to me like you think guitar manufacturers should be doing more R&D in an effort to come up with materials and construction methods that eliminate variables and guarantee absolutes. And we are saying that isn't possible. So it goes in circles.

[ralph]

The OP's posts either dont have a clear point or have conflicting points, this is done so that no matter what responses are recieved, the OP can then argue againt them while still maintaining that their opinion is wiser and more well thought out

Well done OP!

[axmann]

I have no expectation when I deal with wood. Yes, I have a conscious thought process ,what I think will work using education and experience. But it doesn't always pan out that way when I build something. I do the best I can, with what I have learned. Ultimately it may just work, or it may work stellar. Thats the beauty of it. I have no solid expectations. Yep, I hope it's going to be way cool. When it does thats a great thing. It's not a perfect world. When I start thinking that I am in for disappointment compounded. I won't let myself do that. I have had alot of experience with tonal qualities of various woods, grain direction versus tonal deflection. Grain patterns for strength in necks. Glued, screwed, or through construction. Yes , I agree, I hate sloppy craftsmanship. Guys in here know I'm anal with that. But I still know its wood. I would not want a solid carbon fiber or alloy guitar. I still believe there is a musical soul that goes with wood. Yes we use lots of electronics and hardware with electric guitars. I still like to think the wood brought it together. Wood is like some chicks I dated, first date was cool, man I hope it stays that way. It keeps shit interesting for me. I don't want it to be a f'n sterile procedure. I want it to breathe or I'm getting bored.

[Argos]

I've studied this topic extensively and there's a lot of bologna out there. Just curious what links you have been reading? I always enjoy reading more about the subject.

What a can of worms. Most of the I've read comes from books on guitar engineering and the physical science of how guitars work. Do a search on guitar/instrument strings on Google Scholar and you'll find a bunch of relevant papers and books. I've never read a forum post or simple webpage that credibly argued for or against equal/balanced tension.

And why are you guys talking about wood? Listen, guitar companies have complete control over what wood is used for necks. If inherently shitty wood makes it into your expensive guitar, the company is at fault. Period. That said, I'd be willing to bet that the huge majority of wood problems (twisting, warping, etc) are induced after the guitar has left the factory, by users who do not know how to take care of their shit.

[CowboyFromHell]

I`ve said everything I needed to say. From now on I will just see what people think . Cause some people are still stuck with warranty, warpage, neck thru thing, instead of getting the whole picture. Thanks for all the inputs anyway.

Taking your ball and bat and going home so soon?

[Pointy]

Hey, since my post was cited here is where I stand now: I am still interested in all the details of guitar construction, the 'black art part' of it, and even semantics when it comes to describing a guitar. A lot of this is purely marketing - guitarists are notoriously conservative and opinionated, dogmatic even, and guitar companies have to make money too so they give us what we want. Not surprisingly, not all of us want the same thing.

I am not going through several guitars a year like some of you guys here, but even so I have realized that I care about how a guitar feels, plays, sounds, and looks. If it has some space-age tech construction or some voodoo mojo ritual shit that I like, cool - I do care about the science and art that goes in them but in the end that's a bonus. It's all about getting that blues-rock chatter, you know what I mean?

For the record, my 1998 flatsawn (and kinda ugly!) neck korean Ibanez never needed a neck adjustment after the first proper setup - she has travelled a lot, I have experimented with various string gauges and tunings and I am generally not kind to her at all. The AANJ will always be awesome, too! My RR24, well it's an amazing guitar that I fully trust will stand the test of time.

I do draw the line at cheap guitars mass-produced in China and southeast Asia... they still have a long way to go before they manage what Japan and Korea did in terms of quality. I am sure that many of those instruments play nice, but a whole fuckload of them don't, and I don't have the money or time to be trying guitars. I might consider a Squire CV though, those things get a good rep nowadays.


Lastly, the tunes and tones we grew up listening to and lusting after have been written and played on literally all kinds of guitars - and we didn't know if it was a slab of wood with a pickup or a lovingly crafted unique instrument until later, so... stfu and play! Oh well, I try

[Nightbat]

Dont expect me to answer your post. You obviously dont get my point.

Then make a point

[DonP]

What do you people say?

Member since Nov 2006 with almost no posts. All of the sudden 13 post in two days. WTF?

I have about 50 guitars of all makes and models. They all sound good to me.

That is all.

[Nightbat]

I have about 50 guitars of all makes and models. They all sound good to me.

Yeah so do mine, but are they flawless specimens of the most advanced components known to man?