I am a big supporter of ---- if you are using an amp, don't use a modeler.
A Fender will never sound like a Marshall, no matter how good of a model you use. Skipping the preamp section will only remove some of the personality, not all.

Also, most people are buying modelers but only use one sound because they only play one style of music. Seems like a waste to me.


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Personally, I run guitar==>modeler==>PA
And then the PA sends it back to me in the same monitors that the piano and vocals come through.
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I am not going to tell you what product to buy because I am not being paid to promote any one particular device, lol. But I will tell you to know what you want to do with it before you buy one.
For example, you brought up 4cm, which isn't available on every device.

*There is a difference between an amp modeler and a modeling amp.
*Do you want a modeler, or a modeler that is also a multi effect unit.
*Do you want automatic profiling, or would you rather tweak your own sound. Some also have user-shared sounds that you can spend hours going through.
*Do you want a floor unit, or a rack unit. Or rack unit that has an external floor controller.
*Do you want a unit that works well with other units or would you prefer to use something that stands by itself.
*How many inputs do you need. Not just running multiple guitars at the same time, but a mic input for a vocoder. Or just a mic for singing.
*How many outputs do you need. Stereo is fine for many. But some want stereo to go to the pa while a separate set of outputs for their own personal monitors.
*Computer interaction. Whether you want a DAW on your PC or Facetime on an iPhone, you need to be able to hook it up.


And those are just some of the questions to ask yourself.
So regardless of which unit you think gives the best distortion or has the most 'toys', the practicality of a particular device may not suit your needs.

The Helix looks like nice kit. Definitely a step up on sound quality for L6, but I think they had no choice or the Kempers and Fractals of the world would be the logical progression for someone playing their more entry level modelers. My main concern with the Helix would be it uses slightly low resolution IR's (256 samples IIRC, but I could be wrong) and the IR plays at least a 50% role in a modeled final sound. I'm looking forward to trying one as a possible backup rig, although I might go with an AX-8 to stay in the Fractal Family.

The Kemper really intrigued me, but most of the profiles released seem to be commercial and I didn't want to have to buy amps a la carte when I wanted a tone. If I had a studio full of tube amps that I wanted to cop the sounds of it probably would have been my choice, but I was a two tube amp guy so I would have been dependent on tracking down other's profiles for different tones.

For 4CM you have to remember that any amp you are modeling is going to sound like that amp through the cab you are using. I wouldn't run a Vox AC30 head or a Twin Reverb through a Marshall cab and expect it to sound like one of those amps. That's why I monitor FRFR, so I can hear the same thing the audience hears. Plus it's a great deal lighter than lugging a guitar cab.

Also, be careful when using a tube power amp in an FRFR solution. They can quite often color the sound a lot, with the Mesas being more colorful than most. (I think the VHT/Fryette ones are flatter than the Mesas).

My rig layout is Guitar -> Axe-FX -> Out 1 to PA -> Out 2 to personal monitor. ( Yamaha DXR-10 )

I use a Roland FC-300 midi controller to control the Axe-FX, but I'm lusting after an RJM Mastermind GT-16. I use the Roland for preset/scene changes and to switch on/off the tuner, and the two expression pedals on it control different things per preset. (Wah, Rotary speaker speed, univibe rate, etc.) With the scenes functionality of the Axe-FX I don't worry about controlling individual effects, so I can get away with the relatively low number of footswitches the Roland controller has.

So set up for me is this...

Open 4u rack case.
Connect power bar for power for Axe-FX, Monitor, and PSA-120 for Roland foot controller.
Run 2 XLR to snake/FOH
Run TRS to monitor.
Run Midi cable from Axe to FC-300
Power on FC-300, Axe, then monitor to avoid thumps/pops
Plug in guitar and jam.

What is a modler? Nice title dickwad. Lol.

I am getting more and more convinced on just going the frfr route from your posts. I am aware that the amp will color it and that is what was needed in the past but I haven't played any of the much improved units and it seems by most counts that I don't need that option.

Do you guys miss the 4-12 push much? I can't use a 4-12 but I play it at home for fun.

Honestly I would prefer floorboard only just for ease of lugging around but if the tone is there it is still better than my current situation hauling a rack.

The ADA MP-1 would not count as a modeler. It was just a preamp that got its own tone. Its EQ was shifted/focused differently than either Fender or Marshall's EQ. I don't think anyone has ever said which, if any, amp it was similar to.

As Pianoguyy said, modelers, like rack multi-fx, offer a wide array of tones that most people will not use in a live setting, largely because it's only one instrument getting all the different tones. The drums will always sound like the kit your drummer is using, the bass will always sound like the rig your bassist is using, and unless your singer can dupe famous voices, he's going to have his one sound, so it makes no sense for the guitar to sound like whatever cover song you're doing because everything else will be out of place.

While the other guitarists in the crowd (if any) will applaud your spot-on tones, the people who matter will realize that you sound out of place "just like a typical guitar player".

For recording your own stuff or for playing along with a multitude of different CDs/tracks, nailing the original tones goes a long way toward truly understanding what the original artist really played, as amp coloration and harmonic overtones specific to a given amp/cab/pedal combo may affect the way a given chord sounds as compared to the same chord through a different setup.

However, unless you intend to release a collection "songs in various styles", or you have a specific goal of using a given stack of amps for all the myriad flavors in multiple layers like Jimmy Page, then you really should take a long hard look at whether the cost is worth being "in the club" with the newer units, vs the more reasonable expense of an MP-1 and a decent multi-fx unit.

The layering of amps is definitely something that intrigues me. That really is a motivator. Live I never try to match a song perfectly not for the reasons you stated which are very valid but simply it never sounds right because I don't play it that way. The helix I don't consider that outrageous of a cost point all considered. It also will be really easy to flip in the upcoming months because it is still the hot item.

All that being said everything you wrote is spot on. I am a flipper though I love trying new things. I am not really on the quest for the be all end all I just love the journey.

I would be lying if I denied that there is something about walking out of a club and your body is still vibrating from the volume of the music. But being shook to death doesn't make the music any better.


I've been in so many situations, that the push is just something you learn to live without.

the sound guys learn to love the lack of a 4x12 cranking on the stage. If you use a personal monitor you should still be able to get push. I myself went axe fx to cut down on weight, so for me using the on stage vocal monitors is the way to go. I carry a mfc pedal that is phantom powered, the axe is beside the stage with a tuner and wireless in the small rack case. A couple of guitars and rock on.

Does the Randall MTS series count as modeler amps?

The Kemper is awesome and there a a ton of useable models you can download for free from the rig exchange. They are fully tweakable and sound amazing. I play mine through a Mesa 4 x 12 with V30s and it rips. The Marshall rigs sound like Marshall, ENGL sounds like ENGL and the 5150, 6505s all sound great and just like the actual amps. Don't let the tone snobs deter you. The profiler will allow you to own all the top amps that none of us has the tens of thousands of dollars it would cost to own. Light, portable, pushes cabs or direct to the house, super versatile, what's not to like....

Well I am on the other side of this but since you asked opinions I will give you mine.
I've had my Axe Fx II for 3 years now.
I've run it into
Mesa 50/50
ArtSL3
Matrix GT100Fx
Fryette 2/50/2
None of them are neutral enought ot take advantage of all of the power amp modeling, but for EL-34 types of amps the Fryette killed.
it just made the 6L6 amp model sound like ass.
Cabs
MESa 2X12 Recto
Marshall Jcm800 2X12
Avatar 2X12 (3 of them all different speaker configs)
Carvin legacy 2X12 V30's
Marshal 1960B

I've also owned and run it through
Atomic CLR Neo
RCF NX12 SMA
Xitone Passive 12"

Now when I am playing with a band.....Marshall JVM ->Axefx 4cm->JCM800 cab
after trying and trying and trying to "like" FRFR I just couldn't get over how fake it sounded and how "disconnected" from my amp I felt.
Now take into consideration I cannot play with In Ear monitors either.
I initially thought my Atomic CLR would be the cats meow.
my other guitarists Bogner Shiva->Bogner 2X12 crushed it, and not with volume but with "presence"
I need to be connected to my rig or my playing sucks, if you can get over that I'd go with the CLR but to me all FRFR
wedges sound like PA monitors and when I'm playing I like to hear/feel my amp. Plus my band mates all hated it they thought it sounded fake as shit and I have some killer patches.
For gigging I may use the Mesa Cabclone and go FOH with that but on stage I need my amp, and it's not a volume thing it's a "feel" thing
It's not the modeling that's lacking it's the playback systems, I don't think the FRFR offerings are there yet and there is not a tube power amp that is neutral enough (damn you Fryette LXII where are you)

Interesting stuff to me, a bedroom-player only hack. I have learned to love 100W Marshalls and greenback 412s though, and doubt I could ever change.

I think you nailed it with this post. That also makes me wonder how the axe would sound with a 2150. I really am like you in the fact I need that push be it placebo to play my best.

Honestly my mark v 25 is doing me well. I might look into the axe8 mainly for effects, and get some of the FX2 power. Might be the best of both worlds options for me.

If you just want the effects and not the modeling, you want to look at the FX8. The nice part is it has a block for controlling your amps channels so with a single button, you can switch channels at the same time as changing multiple effects.

Yes, feeling your tone, in a band, over loud drummer w - w/o another guitarist is essential. Surprised the 6L6 (5881s) sounded like ass compared to the EL34. I always seem to feel a wider range w 6L6s in general over the mids (cut) of the EL34s when pushed...with the exception of my Uber.

I think modeling has come along way..but have a bit more to go.

My kid's shredder 18 yr bud insists on his HD 500 over anything I have in the house. It's all dialed to his liking in his band. He does very well with it, and has a good grip on great tone. Pretty impressed really.

Now my son wants nothing to do with tube amps. He can only afford the Line 6 HD 500. I love practicing with Line 6, and think they sound great. He sold me his Peavey 6505+ combo so he can buy the Line 6. He knows what he's doing because they both play drums and guitars and take turns..he's sold on it. To them it's plug n go..set and forget. Which is the best concept in the world. The rest is up to your playing. SS is consistant and more forgiving being a bit sloppy, and harmonics, divebombs, sqeals are a pinch..sometimes a well placed killer squeal or any icing can redeem you from a bad moment. People respond to that kinda shit.

Me...I'm a dinosuar. Ever since Randall RG 120, 100 and 80's back in the 80 always sounded great for low to moderate levels but they sounded like complete thin, fizzy ass (various Marshall 4x12) over any drummer. I had 5 RG 80 heads in every color. $100-150 all day then. I just flipped 'em to get the nicest sounding wt 100+ (headroom + preamp distortion) )tube amps at that time. Those always could hang with drummer, bands ect without pushing it beyond their threshold of coolness. Most within less half their volume level. We know this.

They still make horrible soundmen. They still exist. If you know the soundguy and venue..cool. But sometime you walk-in blind and then deaf too..because you can't hear the PA, floor monitors..and all you have is your amp...and drums..and that's prolly it.

I have two perfect combos with 15 extension cabs. The Blackstar, and Peavey. I FEEL the Black Widow 15" pretty transparant without coloring anything, and I hear their 12s that sound exactly like they should. The 15" just adds clean lows, moves more air and that's about it.

It's cool to have a live-in drummer get you in the ballpark of amp level tweakage. Yes, I've been inspired to assemble a band, and have the players to do it. For the first time EVER I discovered I learn and play covers if need be. But'll just be a couple if any..being I'm strickly an original player. Well, I did learn Shy Boy by ear back in '85/86 so that counts. With a HUGE Peavey bass amp. The 1984 Peavey 800wt "The Max" with 3220 cab..2 18"/2 10". That and my first G&L L2000..much pride and joy then! Talent with that kind of gear got you in bands then. I don't know about these days. Kids seem to be on this option. This wasn't an option in the 80's..trying not to drop your refrigerator size gear down the steps..that's what I remember. Ampeg 8 10" cabs..Fuck You!

Kids are spoiled now..look at the options. Look at youtube. 9 year old cute little boy play "the Loner" from Gary Moore. Just look that up..and tell me...how fuggin' cute and ..fuck you! Kid's gotta damn good ear..he's making the sad ass faces and everthing!! I love that kid!.

Who needs lessons. I can't understand how people would go to a teacher these days. Anything you'll ever want to learn is on youtube. Everything and then some!